Magic D!ck Syndrome - Chapters 24-28 This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me Read Along

This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me Read-Along: Chapters 24-28

Book Dragon Banter hosts Sage, Katherine, and Zinzi Bree continue their read-along of Ilona Andrews’ This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me. They discuss the aftermath of Everard’s reveal, Maggie’s practical coping and boundary-setting, and her dilemma over whether the “book” Everard matches the man in front of her. Maggie leverages Everard’s need to stay in her good graces to advance her plans, visits the Citadel to warn Eliarde and flirts with Earl Bellen, then visits Clan Harzi to trigger a power shift and obtain a Marduk. Silveren is revealed, Lute is stabbed, and Maggie is abducted by the Butcher. They praise pacing, worldbuilding, found-family moments with Clover and Kaiden, and end with a new body discovered and homework for the next episode: chapters 29–31.

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Our Summer Read-Along: This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me (Bookshop.org affiliate link): 

https://bookshop.org/p/books/this-kingdom-will-not-kill-me-ilona-andrews/f544c8f1dba95f55?ean=9781250377265&next=t&aid=124342&listref=book-dragon-book-club-reads

00:00 Cold Open Chaos

00:25 Podcast Intro and Setup

01:24 Chapter 24 Aftermath

04:26 Everard Betrayal Fallout

05:18 Is Everard a Villain

11:30 Slow Burn Predictions

15:10 Maggie Strikes Back

15:53 Citadel Flirt and Warning

16:11 Orsi Clan

20:13 Silveren Revealed

21:45 Ambush and Lute Stabbed

23:11 Craft and Pacing Talk

26:25 Butcher Torture 

27:33 Death Count Theories

28:52 How Brutality Is Written

31:33 Butcher Motives and Hreban

32:09 Silveren Endgame Theories

33:18 Maggie Fights Back

37:20 Everard Aftermath Support

40:51 Found Family Comfort

43:17 New Body New Questions

46:35 Rooftop Truths And Trust

52:48 Slow Burn Debate

01:02:11 Predictions Homework Bloopers

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:00

Maggie gets to flirt with a hot knight, check. Grab a Marduke, whatever the heck that is, check. rescue a stranger, check. Tortured by The Butcher, no. No, that was not in the plan. Maggie sees red, The Butcher sees nothing because Maggie beat his face in. Welcome. We see

Katherine Suzette 0:23

Ah. Yeah, no

Zinzi Brookbree 0:24

failed. We are Book Dragon Banter, a podcast for three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy-focused but not exclusive. Sage, Katherine, and me, I'm Zinzi Bree, as we read This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews, all for the love of story. This is a read-along mini season. We're about halfway through here, more than halfway through here. Read or re-read along with us. but either way, we are so glad that you are here. now's also a great time, if you haven't, to hit that subscribe button. That said, we are an explicit podcast, so we can give our honest and unfiltered opinions.

Sage Moreaux 1:00

This not so mini season is sponsored by Book Dragon Ink, our company where we host themed writing retreats with workshops, access to book coaches Katherine and myself, writing sprints, and community. You can check all of that out in the show notes we'll be keeping spoilers out of the read-along episodes as we're saving them all for our mini season wrap-up pajama party. We hope your pajamas are all picked out.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:22

With that said, let's get into it. Chapter 24,

Katherine Suzette 1:25

The aftermath

Zinzi Brookbree 1:26

of the Everard reveal, right? Maggie wakes up, has a fish on her chest, has bruises from the fight where The Butcher got away, which that sucks. and now she has to deal with Everard his controlling ass

Sage Moreaux 1:42

she handled the entire thing at the end of the previous chapter and the beginning of this chapter exceedingly well. Like, I would be losing my shit, and she was just very much like, "Okay, this is what happened. Time to, like, get logical and make a new plan and just deal with the situation." I loved that she, like, braided her hair and went down to breakfast, like, "Can't hide in my room. Just have to handle the situation and keep going."

Katherine Suzette 2:07

But I mean, she did get dropped into a whole new world, and she's been handling that pretty well, so

Sage Moreaux 2:12

True.

Katherine Suzette 2:12

like it tracks.

Sage Moreaux 2:14

yeah, continuation of good character moments

Katherine Suzette 2:16

accepting the fact that she's in a new world, she just decided that, that was gonna be the big deal, and like nothing else was gonna phase her nearly so much. I

Sage Moreaux 2:25

amount of

Zinzi Brookbree 2:26

bit

Sage Moreaux 2:26

PTSD she might have later

Katherine Suzette 2:29

Mm-hmm. Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 2:31

I feel like for Maggie, that if she's not in motion, is at risk of just, like, collapsing, a puddle, doing nothing, right? Like, that's, as soon as you stop doing stuff, it gets so much harder. You lose your inertia. It gets harder to keep the ball rolling, She wouldn't know what to do with herself in a lull in Kair Toren

Sage Moreaux 2:54

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 2:55

And she's coming from a life where she was pretty stagnant in the phase that she was in.

Sage Moreaux 3:01

There's so much outside of her control. She, is dropped in this world. She has no way to leave. So deciding to try and, cope with her mental health or, give herself a minute doesn't change anything. All she can do is try and change what she knows is gonna happen and it, she doesn't wanna have happen. So that, like, gives her some amount of control by, by trying to affect her future and the future of Kair Toren. You know, I'm sure in the back of her head she's like, hopefully I can do this and then somehow figure out a way home." Although now she's getting more and more attached, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 3:35

Even if she left now, it would leave so many people that she's come to care about in danger, so even if she had the ability to exit now and go back to her world, like unless she could take Kaiden Clover with her, I don't think that's happening

Sage Moreaux 3:51

And even when, before the big reveal when she was sitting with Reynold, AKA Everard, on the bench, and one of her reasons for not kissing him was because she might be pulled out at any moment. I imagine that's causing her a lot of pressure to, keep going with the plan, right? As much as she can make a change, but in case she does get somehow pulled out, or the next death is the final one or whatever, or the next death pulls her back to Earth, it would make sense then to be like, "I need to... Like, with every possible moment that I have, I need to try and change the course of action."

Zinzi Brookbree 4:26

she goes from waking up, dealing with the fish, formulating a new plan in her head, right? Knowing that Everard is gonna make concessions to her, to keep himself in her good graces after this big betrayal. and Maggie is immediately, you know, comes downstairs and is like, "Your Grace, the duke," right? Immediately is setting a boundary, going, "I'm not calling you Reynald, heck no."

Sage Moreaux 4:51

Raymond

Zinzi Brookbree 4:52

oh, thank you, not calling him Ramond, Raymond, Ramond. In the audiobook it's Ramond

Katherine Suzette 4:58

Yeah, in the audio they call it Ramonde

Sage Moreaux 5:01

I don't love that name either pronunciation of it, but I'll call him Everard

Zinzi Brookbree 5:07

Yeah, I prefer Everard, which is why I keep calling him Everard. except for the fact that now I can't un-think or un-hear Everhard after I mis-said it the other day when we were recording. what did you guys think about... Maggie has this whole thought process that goes through her head, this reveal of Everard's future, what she knows of it, that he's gonna make a political alliance, a political marriage with, Omel- Omelyana, of Gor, in exchange for troops from her people. and she's someone who is battle-hardened, has had other lovers before, and she, according to the books that Maggie knows, right, this is a, is like a amazing CEO then falling under the spell of, a company coming in to take over, and this other CEO, right? it's almost its own, rom-com waiting to happen as a movie, and getting just bamboozled by him, right? the techniques that are talked about, Everard gives her attention when she does and succeeds at the things he wants her to, and... But when something that is he'd consider a disappointment or she doesn't succeed, he withdraws his attention. He's not mean. He doesn't do anything to her, but just removes his focus, right? And how fucked that is as- being treated that way as a, as a wife, particularly if there's no way that Everard doesn't know that she's, obsessed with him and in love with him. So what did that for you guys say about the book version Maggie is, still grappling with which version of Everard is Everard? Is it this book version that we learn about from Omelyana's perspective, or is it the dude who's in front of her? Right, and is he just has he just set his sights on her and is gonna give her the same treatment as he did to Omelyana in the books?

Katherine Suzette 7:18

I was not too pleased to hear that, but it made a lot of sense for what Maggie entered into thinking of Everard, how she came to be thinking of him the way that she was. manipulative, not very emotional, totally reserved from the woman he chose in his life.

Sage Moreaux 7:37

I'm finding it to be really interesting and clever, especially from a writer's perspective, because we have one point of view character, which is Maggie, and Maggie is basing all of her knowledge, for the most part, on the books that she read, right? there was already been inconsistencies, and one of those was that Reynald was, he died earlier than he was supposed to. So this person that she thought was Reynald, that she was putting all of, like, he was a point of view character, that she'd been in his head a whole lot, and so she was, like, putting all of that onto Everard, right? And, so all of our, the reader's view of, of Everard as Reynald is filtered through Maggie and what she believes about him, and then what is happening in the, the scenes with them together. But he's doing a pretty good job of backing up a lot of her feelings around who Reynald is as, like, an upstanding knight and caring person. but all of her feelings about Everard from the books, he's never a point of view character. He is always maintained as this villain, and to her, that's who he really is, manipulative, all the things that they talked about with the, his wife. that was from a book that was written by somebody, we don't know who yet, right? He wasn't a point of view character. How do we know what he was actually thinking? But I think the authors are doing such a good job of because Maggie is our protagonist, because we feel and think and hear what she is feeling and thinking and hearing and experiencing, we're more in her court about it, and I almost feel like she's trying to talk herself out of liking him, right? She's like, she got, she started crushing

Katherine Suzette 9:20

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 9:21

out of liking him

Sage Moreaux 9:23

Mm-hmm. She's crushing, and, like, that's fairly obvious that she's doing that, and I'm like, maybe this shows my own personal red flags, but I'm like, it's not really gonna work on me. Maybe, maybe I think it's part of the storyline of the slow burn. So there's me, like, there's me witnessing. If I was actually in the situation, I'm sure I would be like, "No way, so manipulative," blah, blah, blah. But as a reader, I'm like, okay, I can see a little bit of the authors trying to manipulate me through Maggie, Like, yes, he lied to her and betrayed her and pretended to be Reynald, but everything else about him she only knows from a book. She doesn't know from personal experience. So, like, to me, that's a disconnect that doesn't make me fully anti. That's, that's a personal thing. If it's true, it's totally fucked, right?

Katherine Suzette 10:11

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 10:11

Is that really how he is? Remains to be seen

Katherine Suzette 10:14

the concern, is Maggie falling into his trap? He's been doing a lot of, reacting in all of the best, most charming ways that would make her feel safe, and trust him, and give him more information, and-

Zinzi Brookbree 10:29

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 10:29

I would feel extremely unsafe, at least temporarily around this man. if that had happened, I would be livid. and I'm not even sure that that would encompass it, because I do not like having my emotions manipulated or used against me in any way. But that said, she doesn't have to like it, but we, we do get to understand it later on, we know that there's an explanation coming. It's just gotta be damn good, right? And, he's gotta rebuild trust with Maggie from here on out. I don't think him rescuing her in these chapters is enough to rebuild trust, although it does for Maggie prove that she feels safe with him still anyways, and now she's got to question, is it because I still think of him as Reynald and he's not actually safe, or is it truly Everard making me feel safe despite everything else that he's done? so we obviously know where that's gonna end up, but the- she's gotta go through that, that struggle. Yeah, eventually. Authors aren't gonna let us down too hard. I, there will be some letdowns by the end of this book, but I- I think we'll come back to it in book number two, by the end of book number two, they've committed to making a relationship happen, and then probably in book three they'll be, like, fully together, 100% fighting for each other the whole time.

Zinzi Brookbree 11:48

Katherine thinks

Katherine Suzette 11:48

Oh, you-

Zinzi Brookbree 11:49

in book two, and book three they're

Katherine Suzette 11:52

Oh, by the end of book two.

Zinzi Brookbree 11:53

couple

Katherine Suzette 11:54

I think they're gonna take a while in book two to decide to be together. But by the end of book two they'll know at least.

Sage Moreaux 12:04

I would agree generally with Katherine that by, that he is endgame. I do think Everard is endgame. However, I do think it's gonna take her some time because she said, like she obviously still is feeling that affinity for him physically, and her body feels safe. Like when he rescues her, she feels safe. She doesn't want him to leave the room when she's sleep. Like he is a place of safety for her, and that is like a visceral reaction, not an, a intellectual one. I mean, it's a little bit intellectual because she thinks about it and, you know, but it's mostly I think a visceral reaction of him being a safe place, and she doesn't She has this found family, but she doesn't know anyone in this, in this kingdom, and she's in this crazy situation. She has nothing outside of this group, so, that puts her in a hard place. But, I think that, as far as your prediction goes, I think she's gonna try and talk herself out of being with him for a long time, and there will be maybe some other things that come up that pull them apart. maybe she could just have a like very comfortable happily ever after with Earl Bellen, who was the knight at the citadel that she flirted with, who seemed very much like he would be like a cozy choice for her, and they could probably settle down, and I just don't think that Maggie is that person. Yeah, real safe choice, and I just don't think she's that person. She likes the excitement

Katherine Suzette 13:28

Yeah, the dash of danger and having to puzzle things out I think that 100% she's going to take a while to come to that conclusion, or to be okay with her instinct of wanting him and feeling safe with him. It's gonna take a while for her, the rest of her to, accept it, and to then choose it. Like, choosing and accepting are, like, different things. So,

Sage Moreaux 13:51

And to trust it

Katherine Suzette 13:52

Maggie's got to demonstrate some, she's got to expose more of the truth to Everard eventually as well. I think that that comes out in book one, so there's another prediction. I do think that by the end of book one she'll, she'll tell Everard that he's actually a character in a book that she read and loved, and I think we're gonna learn a little bit more about why she's in this world in the first place, whether she was born there and then ended up on Earth, or if she's actually an Earthling and ended up in the book somehow.

Sage Moreaux 14:21

My prediction is that the book ends on a big cliffhanger probably about that. Does she end up back on Earth at the end of book one?

Katherine Suzette 14:29

clue.

Sage Moreaux 14:30

think actually that could be a big cliffhanger though

Katherine Suzette 14:33

Maybe in book two they have to go to Earth for some reason.

Sage Moreaux 14:37

And I'm the author.

Katherine Suzette 14:37

the fact that, Reynald died and, his horse tripped the moment that Maggie entered this world, that seems pretty significant. Like, something... It, it was like one of those, like, forks in the path in the trail that something happens and creates a new path, and now all of a sudden Maggie ends up here. Did Reynald trade places with her? what happened in that moment that made it the right place and time for Maggie to be entered into this world, and then also why Maggie? We've gotta figure at least some parts of that out

Zinzi Brookbree 15:10

Mutual manipulations are now happening because we know Everard, according to Maggie, is manipulating her, and Maggie's going, "Okay, I see this challenge. I will meet you on this challenge. I'm gonna manipulate you back, right back," 'cause they're both strategists, right? So she uses the opportunity to force his hand and let her leave the building with Lute, and they go to, the citadel to warn Eliarde, meet, Earl Bellan because, Lord Baron Earl... Lord? Earl? Baron? Nope.

Sage Moreaux 15:42

Earl Belen?

Zinzi Brookbree 15:43

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 15:44

Berenger,

Zinzi Brookbree 15:44

Beringer, he's not there, but it's through the pass that he gave her, that she gets into the citadel to have this conversation. has a little flirt... I mean, man, the guy you like turns out to be a total freaking liar and got his friends to back him up and also lie to you. That sucks. Oh, here's this other guy, hot guy who's flirting with me. that feels a little nice. I'll let that happen, right? Maggie has

Sage Moreaux 16:10

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:11

comes out of there, goes to the second part of her plan where we get, you know, here's a whole, world dump We go to Clan Harzi that has the Orsi and their own cultural stuff happening, and, like, blue... The tips of the hair are dyed blue to signal their clan, and they've got clan colors. colors are, like, real important all over the place here in Kair Toren, in Rellas. but what did you guys think of, like, that whole Maggie comes in and is like, "Oh, by the way, the person you thought is your dad isn't actually your dad. Your dad is actually this guy over here, and this guy over here's gonna kill you at any moment. and please give me a Marduck, which, you know, even though I'm a foreigner, what I want in exchange for, helping you enact this power play."

Katherine Suzette 17:02

I loved it. I loved that choice. in my head, this is Maggie being like, "Okay, that row of dominoes is now no longer accessible to me. That one burned up in flames. Let's see about these other rows of dominoes." Then she goes, "Hmm," and then like, "Okay, I'm gonna flick that one and see what happens." And, so she's like set off this whole new potential path in this world. Again, another branch has broken out because of that, I really liked the idea of this Mordak, this tracker but it like nips at them.

Sage Moreaux 17:29

Cat-like. Evil kitten. Like like a evil kitten. It's like a really small cat with wings. of that.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:33

wings but with, like, raccoon hands, 'cause they don't, the

Sage Moreaux 17:36

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:37

don't retract. So, like, those are always out and, and grabby and digging into stuff

Sage Moreaux 17:42

both of these scenes, the Citadel and then the Orsi, is that what the, the group is called?

Zinzi Brookbree 17:47

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 17:47

it was a great distraction from the drama of her and Everard, right? If they're with each other, it's just gonna be like so much fighting and drama, and that's not the plot. that's like the subplot romance, right? So the plot is saved, so let's go do that, she's in the house so much, and then they do these forays out into the world, and every time they do, you get like another bit of world building, and I really am loving that aspect of it, too. Like the Citadel, you go and see it. You see, Arvol from a distance, which again, she doesn't see his face, which is, like seems to be a meme going on here. and she talks about something that happens in book two with this big battle that takes place on the bridge that she's sitting and like walking across. So like I, I love these moments where you like get to experience the world and her knowledge of the world but then are part of her like manipulation and plan going on at the same time, so it's so layered, and I'm really loving that. And then, yeah, the, the Orsi is just a very cool like let's make it slightly outside of this knights and, you know, magic angle and, and put a little different color into the, into the story. And I loved how she like sat on the bench, or I mean on the floor, knelt on the floor

Zinzi Brookbree 19:03

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 19:03

and just sucked in. She was like ta-

Zinzi Brookbree 19:05

cultural rules and was like, "No, these are, this is the culture. I'm gonna respect it. Even if you're gonna be rude to me, I'm still gonna follow the rules here. Screw

Sage Moreaux 19:14

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 19:14

door

Sage Moreaux 19:15

And I love that she would say that out loud. Like, she's very, I love her, her energy and kind of upfront-ness, and she knew when she was saying all of that about the betrayal of the, I can't remember the chieftess's name, but, about her father not actually being her father and that she was sent here to be, you know, murdered and disowned or whatever, and she's just, she's gonna go for it because she has, this knowledge of power Very enjoyable. And then to have the stranger from the garden in the cage was like a great kind of icing on the cake

Zinzi Brookbree 19:55

what do you guys think he was doing there?

Katherine Suzette 19:58

What do we think he was doing anywhere, honestly? That, that is the question. He just appears in the most random-seeming places that will all make sense later. It will. But like, dude's everywhere that shit's going down

Zinzi Brookbree 20:13

Maggie has a whole thought process, right? Once there's the reveal on, the

Katherine Suzette 20:17

Who he is

Zinzi Brookbree 20:18

he calls her my little Mel, right? My lamb for the slaughter. She recognized that it's Silverin, right, who we've heard about all

Katherine Suzette 20:27

Silver End,

Zinzi Brookbree 20:28

prior to this.

Sage Moreaux 20:29

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 20:29

Silverin.

Sage Moreaux 20:30

not

Zinzi Brookbree 20:31

there's so

Sage Moreaux 20:31

Hunting

Zinzi Brookbree 20:32

characters in this book

Katherine Suzette 20:33

Okay. I got that.

Sage Moreaux 20:34

and R

Katherine Suzette 20:34

"Zinzi, you got it wrong."

Zinzi Brookbree 20:37

Nope, nope. It's Silven,

Katherine Suzette 20:39

yep

Zinzi Brookbree 20:39

of the Knight of the Redeemers, the dude who's working with Hreban, the

Katherine Suzette 20:43

Yes

Zinzi Brookbree 20:45

kidnapped Matteo, Matteo,

Katherine Suzette 20:48

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 20:48

Yeah, all of my predictions were wrong about who he was. we don't know if he's the author or not. I'm assuming not. I didn't expect Silverin to be so handsome. The way that he is talked about, he's this like shifty, backstabbing, betraying kind of like jerk, and yet he's like super beautiful, hot, like with a voice like chocolate, like

Katherine Suzette 21:10

average, are they?

Sage Moreaux 21:11

amazingly good-looking. there's like this kind of what I think is a negative stereotype of the evil person always having some sort of physical flaw, and the heroes being the most gorgeous. So I liked that little flip, but it was unexpected

Katherine Suzette 21:25

when they're described so much as being so gorgeous, I tend to be like, "Oh, so they're evil. Got it. Understood."

Zinzi Brookbree 21:34

Hot and, of gray moral fiber

Katherine Suzette 21:38

they are concerning. my brain flags them and I'm like, "There's something else underneath all the gorgeousness that we've just been distracted by."

Zinzi Brookbree 21:45

we get that Silverin reveal, where, you know, Maggie's like, "Oh shit, this is bad," and Lute gets stopped on the bridge, as Silverin is coming in, and then he's able to come and put a dagger to his throat when he starts getting more menacing towards Maggie, and, Lute sends him on his way, and then Maggie gets bit for the third time by the Mordak. and so Lute's like, "Here, give him to me. I'm good with animals. This'll be fine. You know, just pop it on." And then he gets stabbed, right?

Sage Moreaux 22:20

I made a prediction in my head, and then something happened that basically, like, confirmed or denied it. it happened so fast. There was so much, and I was looking back over it, and like, it, it's all just one chapter. So much happens in one chapter.

Zinzi Brookbree 22:34

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 22:34

and it feels like a lot, and that torture scene felt like a long time, but it was not that super long. so yeah, I was like, "Oh, the, the murdoch is biting her, so it's gonna have to track her." And next thing you know, she's been taken. I did not see Luke getting stabbed coming at all. Like, that, that one I, like, my whole stomach dropped, 'cause I kind of love him,

Katherine Suzette 22:57

Yeah, I'm so glad he didn't die, honestly, but it makes a lot of sense. Like, he takes the Mordak, makes a cute joke about it, says he's good with animals. Boom, he's injured horribly. Maggie's distracted. She gets taken. The pacing was excellent. I feel like you were, you said it right just a few minutes ago, like this pause, this, this break in intensity after the first encounter with the butcher through to the second butch- the encounter with the butcher, that was very necessary for the pacing that the readers are experiencing. I'm consistently impressed by Ilona Andrews, the authors, how they are so effective and efficient with every single thing that they choose to do in the book, and I just, I wish I could be a fly on the wall to some of the ways that they discussed through some of these things and decided on doing them.

Zinzi Brookbree 23:47

Mm-hmm

Katherine Suzette 23:48

Mm-hmm, 'cause that's like, that's my favorite. I love that,

Sage Moreaux 23:50

Me too. And like how, do they have every single detail planned out before they start drafting at all? You know, 'cause different authors do it a different way. I know George R.R. Martin is a self-described basically a pantser. he has ideas and he knows what's coming, but he kind of just like writes it, And then he edits the chapter the next day and moves on, and I'm like, oh my gosh, that's feels overwhelming to me because there's so much detail. And for these guys with so many like hidden moments and so many reveals, like you gotta I, obviously you can write in layers, so you can add that stuff in, but I would think they have a lot planned out. And Zinzi, you had mentioned in a previous, talk that they even wrote like a, at least an outline of the books that Maggie read so that they had an understanding to refer to, and like how much prep went into the, the book that we're reading is amazing

Katherine Suzette 24:41

Love that. it's never a bad, like, draft to over-draft, to work so much on the world-building and all that kinda thing. Like, this book is proof, 'cause that had to happen for it to be so good, for there to be so many well-used and well-done layers. I think that it's consistently fascinating for that reason.

Sage Moreaux 25:00

I know there's, like, a lot of weight around the term romantasy these days. I don't know that I would call it a romantasy at this point because I do feel like the romance is

Zinzi Brookbree 25:10

Me, is not- the authors do not consider it a romantasy, Like, it has romance in it, but it's, it's

Katherine Suzette 25:16

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 25:17

with a romantic subplot. The story still works even without the romance

Sage Moreaux 25:22

Yeah, thank you. I was like, it doesn't feel like a romantasy to me, which I appreciate, 'cause I prefer my fantasy with a subplot of romance over the romance being the main part of it. But they do such a great job of weaving all of those layers together. I didn't expect the Butcher to come back and grab Maggie so soon, and I was lulled into complacency just like she and Lute were, right? they were like, "Oh my gosh, this is We have this reveal of, Silverin, and we're not even thinking about the Butcher at this point," right?

Katherine Suzette 25:52

Yeah, it got our brains all focused on, like, the strategy again and, like, where's Maggie going with this and things like that.

Sage Moreaux 25:58

And there was also this great pacing of she had Sylvren and she didn't know who he was yet, but she had untied him. She was like, "I just need to get to the main thoroughfare where we'll be safe," right? And then I can like, you know, whatever, do whatever with him and like talk to him or try and figure out what to do about him. And she gets to the main thoroughfare, and that's where she is taken from. And so like we're in, we're totally feeling like that's the you know, you get around other people and it's safe. so excellent, excellent, excellent job.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:25

so the Butcher has Maggie. She wakes up, and he has her on the table. I... So when I do, you know, I'm on my however many rereads of this book that I've done now, right? I generally skip over having to reread her getting tortured. it's well-written, but "Oh, I really don't like this," as I was reviewing this section to write up the notes of, like, what happens to her, that he shatters her kneecaps, that he cuts off her fingers, right? He cuts off, I don't know if he cuts off all of her fingers on both hands, but she does make a comment that it, it had been on both hands, even though in the moment on page, it's just the middle finger gets cut off, right, with the readers getting to see that part of it. and he's torturing her and asking her questions because he wants to know if, Hreban is working with Everard, 'cause he's seen that she's with Everard Maggie's on the table, goes through this torture, which is well-written but brutal to read, and then dies for the third time. So one of your guys' early predictions, right, was three deaths for Maggie, so here we are at the third.

Sage Moreaux 27:40

I, I changed mine to five.

Katherine Suzette 27:42

at least once more

Sage Moreaux 27:43

I upped it.

Zinzi Brookbree 27:44

okay.

Sage Moreaux 27:45

updated it to five

Zinzi Brookbree 27:45

like, 10 and seven. You both went down to three in the episode that went live, and then have you had a prediction since that she'll die more?

Sage Moreaux 27:54

Yeah, I haven't posted it yet, but when I went through all of my predictions before the midpoint reveal, I said maybe up to five. but I don't know, I don't know if we'll get there. I agree with Katherine. I think there'll probably be one more or at least very close to death, and there was a moment where, so when she woke up, in chapter 24 from the battle with the, butcher the night before and he had bruised her and she didn't heal from that. So I was starting to wonder if there will be a scene where she's really getting close to death and she decides to die on purpose to wake back up healed as opposed to like having a broken arm, Maybe not in this book, maybe that would be the next book, but I could see the like, okay, I'll just go through with this whole death thing to wake up whole as opposed to, you know, disadvantaged from injury of some sort

Katherine Suzette 28:52

this is an opportunity that the authors did really well to, have some distance between the readers and the scene itself, 'cause, they don't do a whole lot of, like, experiencing sensations through Maggie's lens or anything like that They gave just enough to, like, tell you the facts of some of what happened, and they really allow the, the reader's brain to fill in the rest. Like, they indicated that she was blinded, that, you know, we don't know if all the fingers were off or if it was just most of them. But, they hinted it a lot and allowed for the reader's brain to fill in by using, like, a great balance with their show-tell,

Zinzi Brookbree 29:28

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 29:29

I thought so too, and like her clothes were in tattered. Like you said, she was blinded, so you don't know, does that mean that he did something to her eyes? They don't say, but presum- she's covered in blood. She's blinded, so does that mean that he like messed with her eyeballs or j- just she, like so much blood is, you know, like you just, they don't specify, and it allows the mind to go however dark your mind goes.

Zinzi Brookbree 29:54

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 29:54

they don't say, like, whether or not he had opened her up or anything like that either.

Zinzi Brookbree 29:58

So he, it, he does say that she does not deserve the full treatment, which

Katherine Suzette 30:03

that's right

Zinzi Brookbree 30:04

knights, right? Like cutting them open, doing the artistic display, that sort of thing. So I don't, don't think he went into that. This was much more about the personal, "You fucked with my plans. I want my revenge on that part of it. and I want you to answer my questions. I'm gonna do

Katherine Suzette 30:23

Hmm

Zinzi Brookbree 30:25

conscious pain as I can," right?

Sage Moreaux 30:27

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:27

For the knights that he kills, he duels them and then kills them, and then all of that work that's done on them presumably, right, don't know if they're dead before he cuts them open. That would be my assumption, if he's gonna duel them and defeat them first, 'cause I don't see any of these knights going down and, you know, not fighting to their last breath.

Sage Moreaux 30:49

And there's, I hate to say it like this, but there's like an artistry to the way that he cuts them up, right? Which is gonna be harder to do if someone's fighting you. I mean, yes, he has Maggie tied down and everything, but she's probably thrashing around to whatever degree she can, so doing any kind of like detailed butchery is gonna be a lot easier once the person has died. It was grim, super grim, and a lot of like talking about how she screamed for her mom and that showed how much pain she was experiencing without having to detail out what specifically. I mean, the fingers was bad enough, and the kneecaps.

Katherine Suzette 31:27

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 31:27

"Some painkillers please."

Zinzi Brookbree 31:29

Where's my modern medicine?

Katherine Suzette 31:32

Yeah. thinking of the Butcher was asking questions about what she knew and who told her this and things like that. How'd she know to be in this place? she'd always suspected that there was somebody else involved in, like, backing him and whatnot, but, like, this was evidence and proof, and the fact that she even considers that in the moment at the very beginning at least, is, you know, very key to her personality and who she is.

Sage Moreaux 31:55

I mean, Maggie had believed that it was Hreban's ploy to replace the son Margrave as himself. So by having the butcher kill these random knights and then kill the son Margrave, and he could put himself in that place.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:09

and making himself become a hero to the people

Sage Moreaux 32:12

Right. And so that still seems like an end game. that's a powerful position that we haven't delved too much into, what that means. And I, and I-

Katherine Suzette 32:23

know about it?

Sage Moreaux 32:24

What does Silv- exactly. Sylvren?

Katherine Suzette 32:27

Yeah, 'cause he's, he's in bed with Hebron, so like how is he protecting Hebron's schemes, and what does he know about The Butcher? Does he support this? Is he... I mean, The Butcher says how he found Maggie, but I kinda wonder if there was something more to it. He was, had something to do with Silverin. I don't, I don't know.

Sage Moreaux 32:48

Well, and that reminds me it was

Katherine Suzette 32:49

was in like a cell overnight, so it wasn't him,

Sage Moreaux 32:52

Well, but he then talks to Maggie about how like every time she shows up, things go wrong, and I thought that was really interesting too, right? Like she shows up in the market and things go wrong with how it's starting to happen. and I really, I loved, that was just an interesting little insight of how he is involved in all of these manipulations that are happening. and how does she know to, to show up and change them, right? And that was a nice little telling moment. I wanted to say that I was really the whole time I was like, okay, she's on the butcher's table. She knows she's gonna die, and she has this horrible feeling like if she dies and comes back and he realizes that can happen, like what an amazing gift for a torturer, right? Like the reality of that is so horrific,

Zinzi Brookbree 33:39

become a,

Sage Moreaux 33:39

she's like,

Zinzi Brookbree 33:40

toy

Sage Moreaux 33:41

for, yeah, until you like, your mind shatters, right? And like her mind starts to shatter a little just thinking about it. and this whole time like the creature knows her scent and can track her. And so I'm like waiting for her to be rescued, and I was so glad that she rescued herself. that was a incredibly smart choice by the authors because I think, you know, we all generally love an empowered woman who can rescue herself and isn't waiting around to be rescued. But then for Everard to show up and kind of like rescue her emotionally a little bit, like she killed the butcher like a bunch of times. She killed him and she kept killing him and she killed him some more, to the point where she doesn't know how long it was. You know, like was that a minute that she was smashing him? Was that an hour that she was smashing his face in? Like she doesn't know. She has no clue. She was so traumatized and in shock, and Everard steps in at that moment, and it, she needed somebody that she trusted in that moment or, you know, felt safe with, maybe not trusted, but felt safe, safe with to like pick her up and take her out of there I also thought that this was a really smart choice because this is gonna heal their connection a lot faster than if she hadn't gone through this trauma, right? She, this is like now she, yeah, I'm sure she's still pissed at him or whatever, but like this was such a bigger emotional trauma,

Katherine Suzette 35:08

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 35:08

there to help her through.

Katherine Suzette 35:10

does a lot of work

Sage Moreaux 35:11

So all of that, again, super well-handled. Like she rescues herself. She's like, there was a joke about her like bludgeoning people, second guy she'd killed with like a blunt stick. I thought that was just hilarious. A little bit of humor to kind of break up the intensity of it

Zinzi Brookbree 35:30

She got lucky, right? it's because we know this is how the authors want it to go, But, if she'd suddenly, picked up a dagger that he'd used on her off of the table and stabbed him and stabbed him a bunch with no training or anything, Like, he's a trained soldier. And if she'd won that fight, even though she'd have killed him, I would have been frustrated with the, ill logic of here's a person who's just come back from the dead, tortured, sore, physical capabilities, taking down a full-grown man, right? he had to be distracted. He had to be completely sure that she was dead and that, he had nothing to worry about, being in a vulnerable state, and for her to go, heavy object to the head, which is immediately something that dazes you. And even then, she hits him, and he starts trying to use his magic, Like, he turns around, and he does start trying to react, and it's just the barrage of her hits to his head, that's what saved her, and I appreciate that they went with something that felt so plausible, as opposed to,

Sage Moreaux 36:36

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:37

got lucky, magic poisonous knife, or, you know, some oth- some other method of rescuing herself

Katherine Suzette 36:44

Also, was anybody else low-key pleased that the butcher had an opportunity to realize it was her that was killing him?

Sage Moreaux 36:52

Yes

Zinzi Brookbree 36:53

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette 36:53

mean, I definitely felt

Zinzi Brookbree 36:55

she

Katherine Suzette 36:55

with that.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:56

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 36:57

Yep

Katherine Suzette 36:58

I was like, "Wait, don't kill him yet. He's gotta know it was you." And then I was like, "Oh, okay. He's, he's struggling. He sees her face. He's terrified now. Okay. All right. Now I'm satisfied." I just needed him to know that it was her killing him. Like, it would've been okay if, if she'd got him on the first strike and that was it, but, like, I'm glad he knew as he was dying horribly as

Zinzi Brookbree 37:20

Sage, you mentioned that the rescue and the aftermath that Everard does coming in to break, Maggie out of her red haze, and, carrying her to the carriage, I really appreciated, written in is he tries to set her down. He tries, when she says, "I can walk myself," right? Like, any of the things that she requests, he does not force his, "Oh, I'm just gonna scoop you up and do it for you," in any moment when she has verbalized,

Sage Moreaux 37:51

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 37:51

this is what I want." horrible as it is as the reader to read through Maggie's experience of the torture, and then killing this guy, and then thinking about Everard walking into the room and seeing Maggie covered in blood, right, covered in her own blood, and then presumably some of the butcher's, standing over the dead body, squishing his face in. and then to have a conversation with her later about, you know, her

Katherine Suzette 38:23

Did they find my fingers?

Zinzi Brookbree 38:25

were cut off. Yeah, did they find my fingers? He's made multiple promises of, kind of thing will never happen to you. You will not get hurt." I felt bad for him for having to witness that and think through it, and now he goes, "This happened because I didn't go with you. I blame myself," right? Like, he doesn't blame Lute. But also, when he turns his murderous green gaze on the Shear's agent that has been following them, and that

Katherine Suzette 38:52

Like, she should've known.

Zinzi Brookbree 38:53

right, I was like, You,

Katherine Suzette 38:55

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 38:55

you should hide. You should run.

Katherine Suzette 38:57

Yeah, that girl needs to fuck off, like, very fast

Zinzi Brookbree 39:02

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 39:02

Yes. Right, because Lute, like he was stabbed and, you know, it wasn't like he just let it happen, right? But the, the agent who was there, you know, and then Lute came back and like helped find, do, enact the re- right,

Zinzi Brookbree 39:18

Because of the

Sage Moreaux 39:19

right.

Zinzi Brookbree 39:20

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 39:20

So there wasn't really, like even though we get later Gort really laying into Lute about how he failed

Zinzi Brookbree 39:28

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 39:30

to me he's still a kid, right? Like, he did, he's pretty new at all of this kind of stuff. He's not a seasoned warrior in any sort of way. He's still in training, and he did the best that he could. But, his dad certainly didn't think so, which, you know, his dad is a pro mercenary, makes sense. That's the, the pep talk

Zinzi Brookbree 39:49

I would, I would actually argue that, 'cause, Will and Lute, I mean, Lute is the younger one, he's 19, right? but the way that they're talked

Sage Moreaux 39:56

Okay.

Zinzi Brookbree 39:56

even Maggie has commented, that they're experienced mercenaries. Even Everard, when they were in the alleyway and she was like, "I jumped out and grabbed onto the butcher because he was gonna go down Lute's alleyway and I was concerned for him," and Everard is like, "He's been trained for this. He's a grown man who's been trained for this." They've been training, Everard's been training them in the courtyard, Improving their, fight skills.

Sage Moreaux 40:23

Yes. I forgot he was 19. I always think of him as younger, like as 14, 15. But he is like a man

Zinzi Brookbree 40:30

he's full grown. I'm secretly hoping for an eventual, I don't know if it will be Lute or if it will be Will, but I'm hoping for Clover to end up with maybe one of them, unless we get introduced to, like, a different character that would be a good fit for Clover, but that's just my, that's my little secret internal ship that I think would be adorable.

Katherine Suzette 40:49

Hmm

Zinzi Brookbree 40:50

we'll see

Sage Moreaux 40:51

I really loved when Maggie asked Clover to hold her hand so that she could feel safe while putting her through the process of closing her eyes. And that was, to me, that was like she was in the carriage with Everard, and he was, like, respecting her wishes, trying to provide her with boundaries, right? Whether he's doing it manipulatively or not. We all know that I am all in on Everard, so I'm gonna give him benefit of the doubt constantly, but I will try not to just, like, fully be like, "Because he's gr- it's green flags." but so he's being really gentle with her, and she I loved that she allowed herself to cry. I thought that was really cathartic and, what she needed. And then to be in the room with Clover and for Clover to provide that safety support, and then, Kaeden being really upset and like, "Don't die," all of these moments are really, tightening the found family.

Katherine Suzette 41:42

Meow

Sage Moreaux 41:42

Like, she had it, but you know, the, Gort and his family, well, the kids didn't know, but he and his wife were lying about Everard. Everard was lying. and but the kids didn't know, and this is, like, kind of tightening that trust between at least those, those people and Maggie, and I, I really enjoyed that as, like, a, like, bond... the classic thing of bonding through trauma bonding. But it was sweet

Katherine Suzette 42:08

I liked that Clover called her My Lady, and, Maggie said Maggie, and Clover decided to call her Maggie in that moment, and I felt like that was a beautiful decision. Like, Clover is warming up to the connection that they're all experiencing. It's like I, I don't think Clover was opposed to being a part of this, like, found family, but I don't think that she was as emotionally attached as Kaiden had become, like with all of his trinkets and things like that. I still like that she was willing to let in that personal connection in that moment.

Sage Moreaux 42:44

But I do think she finds strength in being a, like a ladies' like her position. It's kind of like how Maggie use, like is she's constantly on the move, like you were saying, Zinzi, like she finds strength through action. It's like Clover finds strength through her role, like what she knows she's good at, and her confidence in her ability to, to manage the household. so it's an interesting look at how like what do we find strength in, what aspects of our personality or who we are as people do we find strength and lean into. I'll report back on mine next time. I'll have to think about it.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:16

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 43:17

really wanna keep reading, but, part of why I wanna keep reading, and, my favorite part of all of this is actually the very end of chapter 28 when there's another body discovered, and I was like, "Yes!" Not because I wanted somebody else to die, but because I'm like, that, this butcher that we just experienced was not the full story, Silverin is so involved in it, and he knows exactly what's going... He's, like, laying down the pieces or keeping watch on them or something, and then Hebron is backing all this. So I'm like, "So who is the real butcher behind the butcher?" You know? what is this? So I was happy. that was the first time in the whole book I've just, like, like, stopped and had this, like, cheeky grin come over my face, and I'm, like, all alone. I'm doing the dishes. But I was just like, "Yeah. Okay."

Zinzi Brookbree 44:05

anytime Solentine shows up, I'm like, "Ooh, things are about to get interesting."

Katherine Suzette 44:10

Yes

Sage Moreaux 44:11

That was the grin that I had when I realized it was Everard. I was like, oh, 'cause I didn't expect it at all.

Zinzi Brookbree 44:18

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 44:18

wanna talk about Everard explaining the Reynald situation on the on the rooftop. But I will say that what you just mentioned, Katherine, about how like now all of a sudden there's a new body, I was like, Maggie was like, "We won. We did it. We, you know, we tricked the future, and we managed to change things." And my prediction was like, no, that Sun Margrave role is too important to Hreban's overarching plan for it to happen this easily. However, I did not expect them to find another body so soon. Like, what? I guess it was the night before. so it was like, it's breakfast the next day. So it was just the day before that the butcher was killed, and they've already found a, like a replacement. Does that show that Hreban is super smart, has lots of backup plans, is winging it? I don't, I don't know. I'm gonna guess he's relatively smart, and just kind of, I see him as a very unempathetic person

Zinzi Brookbree 45:13

theorize here for you guys through this whole sequence of stuff that's, you know, it reveals, is Maggie believes that Silven is working with Hrebran. Under Silven's control is Mateo, who can see things that are happening in the present, right? personally, my

Sage Moreaux 45:33

For real like that

Zinzi Brookbree 45:34

why they so quickly have another body is that Mateo maybe saw what went down, as far as either Maggie, maybe Maggie's death, or maybe Maggie killing the butcher, and reported that to Silven. And strategist that he is, that we've learned from a conversation with Everard about watching Silven, manipulate the lords in a room, right, to enact a battle plan.

Sage Moreaux 46:04

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 46:07

summoned Hrebran and came up with a solution, right?

Sage Moreaux 46:10

Yeah, and to be a good strategist and to have an epic plan, like you've... It's like chess, right? You're supposed to think if you, if you play well. You have three, yeah, you're thinking three moves ahead. You have different ideas of what you're gonna do if this area changes and that area changes of the game board. So I imagine there's some of that. I forgot about Matteo and his ability and that he was under Silveryn's control.

Zinzi Brookbree 46:35

I wanna bring us back to this lovely conversation that, Everard has with Maggie up on the parapet, up on the wall, where, he recounts how Reynald died, the timing of it, which is considered significant to Maggie. not that she lets Everard in on that, he has vowed save Matteo on behalf of his friend who is gone, that, it is in his best interest to make sure peace happens, that, the kingdom does not fall, right? Because that will protect Selva in the long run, so that their desires are still aligned, their goals are still aligned. Part of this conversation, Maggie asks for her lucky coin back, which know was first gifted to her from Everard. Everard is, still does not know that. And Everard does not apologize for lying to Maggie during all of this. Maggie does not apologize for not listening to him and staying inside the tower instead of jumping on the butcher, right? Like, they there's, these are characters who are, yes, communicating, but nobody's apologizing or taking back their stupid decisions. but there are, there are still conversations where they are trying to manipulation, rationalize the manipulation, right? Try and put themselves into, "Oh, okay, I can understand why you're making this decision." but there's still no regret, and that's, I think that's part of why for Maggie it's not what he did is unforgivable, because she can understand it, right? it's pretty, understandably out, his reasoning, when everything for him is about protecting Selva. but it makes it hard to know she's a tool or a person to him

Sage Moreaux 48:35

Yeah. I liked how he explained it all out because it does... Like, if you put yourself in his head, his friend just died. He's here. He's got his sword, which was gifted to him. He did go and see him die, But, he's sitting there, and then this woman comes up and, like, thinks that he's Everard. And, like, of course I would... If I was in that position, I might be like, "Yeah, I'm gonna s-," or sorry, Reynald. I'm gonna say, "Yeah, let's see what happens." Right? Huh, this is interesting, especially the way that he is very, you know, intellectual, strategic thinker. And then I do think that he should have, like, revealed himself earlier, but she's made it very clear what she thought of Everard, and I think he liked her. Right? Like, he saw her as a asset certainly with all of her knowledge and stuff, but I also think he liked her. He liked her kind of when he was impressed by her with the barrel and the reasoning of everything out. The choices that she makes about what she thinks is in the best interest of the kingdom and how she wants that to go about, I do think he's warmed up to her, so he doesn't tell her because he doesn't want to lose that, bad choice, 100%. This whole time now she's just basically talking herself out of seeing that he might have any feelings towards her that aren't for his master plan. Because otherwise she's gonna feel foolish if he tricks her again, and I do think that there's a very good chance that some sort of betrayal will happen again,

Zinzi Brookbree 50:05

part of Maggie's reasoning isn't just, he could lie to me again, and I'd get hurt," there is that, but also Maggie has established herself enough and her knowledge as a weapon, and she wants to be in control of her knowledge. She wants to be in control of the weapon that she is, and she is afraid that if she fell under his spell, right, if she went, "Oh, his feelings for me are real," and whether they were or not, that she would cede some of her control over her knowledge, that he could use that in ways That could have unexpected consequences, Because he's still never, he's not gonna have the full picture that she has in her head from the two books that she's read and obsessed over for years and years and years. That was something even when he was in Reynald's form was part of their relationship dynamic, where she was going, "I'm not gonna tell him about Matteo because, and that's a theory, because I don't want him to go storm the Knight of the Redeemer and try and be rash and rescue him," he can either create more harm as the Duke of Salva and as a powerhouse, or, as a way to even necessarily harm and endanger himself, it can go both ways. that's more at the core of why Maggie is doing the, "I like you, but I can't, I can't let myself," right?

Katherine Suzette 51:34

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 51:34

down to power for her

Katherine Suzette 51:39

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 51:39

doesn't she say that, she doesn't just want a physical relationship, she wants

Zinzi Brookbree 51:45

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 51:45

a, like, h- she wants a equal partner? And, he is a powerful, more powerful than Reynald, equal partner in some ways, but,

Zinzi Brookbree 51:55

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 51:55

wants a equal partner who she can trust.

Katherine Suzette 51:58

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 51:59

that's interesting. When, as you were talking, I was thinking about so for Maggie and Everard, they are both intelligent, strong-minded people, who if they end up in a relationship together, regardless of being fully truth-telling and trustworthy and all of this, like if they get to that point, they're still just gonna have to deal with each other's personalities, and they both wanna be in power. They both wanna be in charge,

Zinzi Brookbree 52:23

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 52:23

and that isn't an impossible lift, but that is like an element outside of everything else that they will have to deal with as a couple, right? beyond the happily for now or happily ever after. Maggie and, Everard could be romantically involved, but they are still, let's say they just forgave each other and started having sex and whatever, they would still be trying to save the kingdom, right? So they'd still be in this power struggle with each other about what to do and who's in charge and all of that,

Zinzi Brookbree 52:48

I do wanna talk about this a little bit more, in that it's really interesting and fun, to be over on Reddit and in all the comments and feedback that this book has received. I've had conversations with one of my friends who she paused reading the book because she was getting so annoyed with Maggie. She was just like, "Why, why can't Maggie just get over him lying? She's lying to him, like she's a hypocrite," right? There are some people who are reading it with like, she should get over it faster, right? She needs to accept that the Everard in front of her is different than the version of him in the book. then there's other readers who are like, "Oh man, I just, you know, I'm loving the slow burn. This is great pace. Maggie... You know, Katherine, I know you're like, 'I want the grovel. He's gotta earn it.' You can take your time because I, I...

Katherine Suzette 53:36

both do, honestly

Zinzi Brookbree 53:37

yeah. they, yeah, they've both s- they've both, screwed up in different ways, And that's, I mean, we're human.

Katherine Suzette 53:44

And they will continue to

Zinzi Brookbree 53:45

book characters. Yeah, they'll continue to. They're characters. they're not perfect, and it would be boring if they were, right? so it's just, it's really interesting having these conversations with my friends, with my sister, about the, the character dynamics, seeing the stuff on the, Facebook and, but there there was one part in particular, I forget the specific post, but I have it, I have it saved on But the authors responded with "Here's a hypothetical scenario for you of what this would feel like," If, you came home and your roommate had stolen $1,000 out of your account and didn't pay a bill that they were supposed to, and lied to you about it, and then you questioned them again, and they still lied about it, and then they got their friend to back them up about the lie, right? Like, it was, the authors put it into a modern context,

Sage Moreaux 54:38

nice

Zinzi Brookbree 54:39

So that was, a refreshing, perspective information of how they see the characters. and part of it was is that for them, in romantasy books, readers tend to forgive a male lead sooner than they will forgive a female lead over

Sage Moreaux 54:54

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 54:54

and that they chose on purpose for that not to be the case with Maggie. It is intentional, that it is not a, "I can get over this," and "My like for you is stronger than your betrayal, we're gonna get together," blah, blah, blah. for me, that's part of what pushes this book far more on the it's fantasy with a romantic subplot instead of a romantasy. If the, if they had changed, okay, this moment being rescued from the butcher had brought them together romantically, and, you know, kissing started happening here, or they slept together, or she gave in to her desi- Like, to me, that would have turned this into... I love seeing your faces right now. For those who are not, not watching, Catherine and Sage are both frowning and shaking their heads. They're like, "No, I don't want that. Don't do this, please."

Katherine Suzette 55:48

Yeah,

Sage Moreaux 55:48

No, it was perfectly done

Zinzi Brookbree 55:50

had been the direction, if that had been where they took it, I would have been like, this is 100% romantasy because now we are so much more focused on the romantic relationship that this other plot stuff now background, right? It would have made that shift in the story. So that is my

Katherine Suzette 56:08

I think it

Zinzi Brookbree 56:08

a bit of my defense as to why better for Maggie to have a prolonged and dealing with this as a betrayal and, and needing to sort out her own feelings, Everard and what parts of him are being manipulative and what parts of him and does he or does he not have genuine affection for her, and does that translate also into his actions? Because there are a lot of his actions that have been wonderful but still are on that line of is it manipulation to make me like you, or is it because you

Sage Moreaux 56:49

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 56:50

care?

Sage Moreaux 56:51

Or see me as an asset. Are you protecting your assets?

Zinzi Brookbree 56:54

I was reading these comments and loving them, because there was one that was like, if your best friend came to you and told you the things that Everard had done to Maggie, that her boyfriend had done them, or, like, a guy that she liked had done them, right? Be like,

Katherine Suzette 57:08

Murder him

Zinzi Brookbree 57:08

to me. he got his friend to lie to me too on my beha-" Like, she listed out... No, I can't say

Katherine Suzette 57:14

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 57:15

because some of them, spoilers, right? But, like, if, if your friend told you the guy had, had done any of that, you'd be like, "Dump his ass," right? that is, that is not a dude worth your time. Move on.

Katherine Suzette 57:26

Nope. Nope

Zinzi Brookbree 57:28

a guy who lies to you, That's, period.

Sage Moreaux 57:33

Yeah, and I think that there's this like, because it's a fantasy world and he's a male, he's a character in a fantasy world, there is a little bit of like what that entails for people in that world. But Maggie isn't from that world, at least to our knowledge, and she has a modern-day real world perspective of what that looks like.

Zinzi Brookbree 57:55

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 57:56

I was almost expecting her to throw in his face like, "You're just a character in the book," but I was glad that she didn't. But I do feel like that will come up and cause him to feel betrayed at some point down the line. Maybe when she gets to the point where she's feeling a little more trust for him or something like that, I could see that as being something. That's my prediction, is that will put another wrench in their romance. well, so it was earlier, I think it was like chapter 24 where she talks about when she's talking about why his arranged marriage, why the wife, I forget her name, but why she fell in love with Everard so quickly even though he was like this manipulative asshole, and it was like magic dick syndrome is what it was described as, and I,

Katherine Suzette 58:37

Yes.

Sage Moreaux 58:37

that, thought that was so hilarious first of all, and I was also like, yes, see now this is why you have characters forgiving him more quickly is because you're inserting things like this, like about how good he is in bed, and so everyone's like, "Okay, let's see that." I thought the, the idea of like this magic dick syndrome is kind of the romantasy angle that you're talking about where the characters, they're just so hot for each other, the sex is so good, or they, you know, they're just so turned on that they can forgive all of like the red flags because they're mates or the sex is amazing or they, you know, how could anyone else ever be at this level, and that bullshit stuff is what makes it maybe fun to read in the moment if that's what you're going for, but doesn't bring it up to the standard of like a solid relationship that works really well outside of the romance plot,

Zinzi Brookbree 59:30

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 59:31

if these two are end game, they are right now working together to try and save the kingdom. They are in a reluctant alliance to save the kingdom, and they both have a very strong goal even though their reasoning is different, right? Everard wants to protect Selva, and he knows if the kingdom falls under Herbron's rule, Selva will be in danger, and Maggie wants to save it because of all of the characters she fell in love with and how, she feels about them and doesn't want to see that happen to them, right? So they have different reasons for it, but they are still both all in on this end goal, so they have to work together. So if we just let them fall in bed after, I mean, I did appreciate how she allowed him to comfort her and that she felt safe with him after the torture and death, but if she, they had just fallen in bed or even kissed in that moment, I would have felt like it was a cheapening of their dynamic, and it would have just like i- I just think it would have given me like a really bad feeling, so, I appreciate that.

Katherine Suzette 1:00:33

I definitely am glad that we came back to the, the sex part because I was like, it's not like the authors are ignoring it. They just told us, number one, he's good in bed. That's all you need to know. Number two, they're not gonna get into bed that quickly because we care more about their emotions and their heart and them being good and happy humans that are worth being together than them just fucking each other's, like, daylights out. And then, also that was part of a manipulation tactic with the prior relationship thing too. So I'm, I'm glad that it was

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:03

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 1:01:04

addressed and brought up and I'm, I think that I would... I'm not sure if it would be a complete DNF or if I would be taking a break from it had they just got together immediately after he rescued her, 'cause I'm like, dude rescued her. Suddenly those red flags are green because he's big and muscly and all of that." Like, I am glad that her instinct was like, "Oh, he's safe."

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:27

right? Like

Sage Moreaux 1:01:28

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 1:01:29

doesn't forgive all the other shit. And, like, just to reiterate, like, I think that they both have some things to make up for and to work towards so that they can be right for each other, but I do think they're an, they're end game for this series, I do think Maggie will betray him at some point. I don't know how big it'll be, how catastrophic, but it'll be big enough that it'll mean a lot to them. yeah, I think I would be upset with you, Zinzi, had they just jumped into bed after that. I'd be like, "Zinzi, why did you make me read this? I was so in love with it and now I'm so

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:02

I wouldn't have

Sage Moreaux 1:02:03

It's so cheap.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:04

if they had done

Sage Moreaux 1:02:05

Mm-hmm

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:05

been like, "And this was so good until this."

Sage Moreaux 1:02:12

I do have a romance prediction for this one though. I do believe that by the end of this novel, there will be a kiss. I do wonder if it'll lean into the trope of like, "Oh, someone's coming, let's pretend to make out," type of thing. Like that happens, there's reasons to kiss outside of a romantic decision to go to the next level.

Katherine Suzette 1:02:33

that betrayal thing

Sage Moreaux 1:02:34

Yeah, it could be somewhere along there. I'm gonna guess that Maggie instigates it, possibly for strategic reasons. So that's my prediction is that there will be a kiss, but it may be as a strategic kiss and, but it will also like, you know, make an impact. know how old Arval is

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:52

up, Heart of a Knight, part three. and we are headed into part four, In the Name of the Father, and that's still a significant chunk of the book. There's still a lot

Katherine Suzette 1:03:01

Ah.

1:03:02

Your homework for the next episode is chapters 29 through 31.

Sage Moreaux 1:03:06

Outside of the podcast, you can find us at Book Dragon Ink, as well as at our weekly Zoom write-ins with Write With Me Zinzi Bree, With Zinzi, and we'd love for you to check those out, which you can find the links to all of our goodies in the show notes. If you just like our book stuff here on the podcast, check out our Substack where you can support us directly. Thanks to Ria Nancoo for the continued support. Or we'd love you to leave us a review. Thank you for tuning in, And as Kaiden says, "No more dying." Thanks for tuning in. We'll see you next time. Don't forget to do your homework

Zinzi Brookbree 1:03:44

Bloopers. We are officially recording. Oh, that's a, that's a voice. Don't know where that went. I have not done Bartok in long time. I don't know what triggered Bartok. Although there are lots of voices in Dungeon Crawler Carl, which I am currently on, just finished reading book seven, so it's probably from there.

Katherine Suzette 1:04:05

Thanks.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:05

my, my, my, my meese,

Katherine Suzette 1:04:07

Nice

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:08

Meeses. There we go. Oh, normal voice. There we go. right. There's a blooper for

Katherine Suzette 1:04:13

It's back.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:16

I don't know why pajamas makes me wanna sound like Jimmy Neutron's best friend, whatever his name is, I'm forgetting, but I can picture him in my head, and he's got red curly hair, and he's got it... Anyway, he sounds like this. ooh, my brain just totally fizzed out on that. Um, you can always leave our podcast a review. That's... Nope, I've... Help

Katherine Suzette 1:04:37

Done.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:40

As Maggie thinks, I'm looking for a man in armor, 6'5", blue eyes. I'm looking for a man in armor, blue eyes, s- 6'5". Nope. Why do I wanna... 6'5", blue eyes. I'm looking for a man in armor, blue eyes, 6'5".

Katherine Suzette 1:04:56

Mine doesn't have to be wearing armor, but, like, also I care if he has blue eyes. But I do like the 6'5".

Sage Moreaux 1:05:03

armor

Katherine Suzette 1:05:03

Yeah, but, like, I don't feel like the armor is, like, absolutely required

Sage Moreaux 1:05:08

And hard to take off. It's like a really careful, lengthy process.

Katherine Suzette 1:05:13

kind of my point without like saying it, saying it, but like ours, yeah, kind of effort

Sage Moreaux 1:05:20

Looks good though