The Everard in the Room - Chapter 23 This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me Read-along

The Everard in the Room: Chapter 23 Shock & Betrayal | This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me Read-Along

In this Book Dragon Banter read-along episode for This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews, Zinzi, Sage, and Katherine react to the Chapter 23 twist: a moment they praise as “unexpected but inevitable” due to carefully planted clues (coins, age, excessive knowledge, and character reactions) and effective red herrings like the. They discuss how the reveal reframes Maggie’s trust, attraction, and guilt, and debate whether the manipulation can be forgiven. The group also highlights the suspenseful fight scene’s introduction of multiple magics (purple, silver, green), Solentine’s sudden involvement and attitude, and the new questions raised about motives.

*Solentine POV snippets that happened after chapter 23 were taken off the Ilona Andrews’ blog. I hope that means we’ll see those in a published form sooner rather than later. Subscribe to the authors blog so you don’t miss future snippets: https://ilona-andrews.com/blog/

Podcast links:

Book Dragon Banter Substack - https://bookdragonbanter.substack.com/

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd

Other links:

Book Dragon Ink Online Writing Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats

Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Book Dragon Ink: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Our Summer Read-Along: This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me (Bookshop.org affiliate link): 

https://bookshop.org/p/books/this-kingdom-will-not-kill-me-ilona-andrews/f544c8f1dba95f55?ean=9781250377265&next=t&aid=124342&listref=book-dragon-book-club-reads

00:00 Welcome and Setup

01:10 Everard Reveal Reactions

03:00 Spoilers and Suspense

08:05 Clues and Red Herrings

16:12 Trust and Betrayal Fallout

21:18 Romance Stakes and Equality

27:24 Predictions and Motivations

32:47 Audiobook Voice Debate

36:59 Accent And Identity Shift

40:08 Fight Reveal And Trust

42:33 Magic Finally Unleashed

44:55 Why Solentine Appears

48:56 Room Confrontation Fallout

53:18 She's Mine Subtext

55:13 Slow Burn Stakes

59:34 Secrets And Betrayal

01:01:36 Bonus Scenes And Owlcrate

01:08:18 Wrap Up And Next Reading

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:00

let's talk about the Everard in the room, welcome. We See the Assassins Have Failed. We're Book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy focused, but not exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me, I'm Zinzi Bree, as we read This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews, all for the love of story. This is a read-along mini season where we'll be covering a section of chapters each

Katherine Suzette 0:28

So it's easy for us to go in and say, "Well, so Dania's just going to join us.

Zinzi Brookbree 0:31

it. That's, that's all we're doing for this one, 'cause it's a big one. or reread along with us. We're so glad you're here. And now's a great time to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss our next episode are you in or are you out? I hope by now you're in Cause this is halfway through the book. Like, you better be in by now. If you're not, then what are you doing here?

Sage Moreaux 0:51

That said, we're an explicit podcast, so we can give our honest and unfiltered opinions

Katherine Suzette 0:56

This mini season is sponsored by Book Dragon, Inc., our company in which we host themed writing retreats alongside workshops, access to book coaches, writing sprints, and community. You can check out our upcoming events with the link in the show notes

Zinzi Brookbree 1:08

All right, let's get into it. Let's talk about The Everard in the Room

Sage Moreaux 1:13

i, I just wanna share that as I was reading and I was thinking about what am I gonna talk about on the podcast, all I could think was, "Fuck me, dude." crazy.

Katherine Suzette 1:22

Was that like a legit invitation for him or was that like like you screwed me over

Sage Moreaux 1:27

my whole brain, uh, yeah, I mean, yeah, just like exploded

Katherine Suzette 1:31

both.

Sage Moreaux 1:32

so I couldn't think for a little while.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:34

this chapter, this, this reveal, this experience of all of this buildup with Reynald and then, oops, it's Everard, was the whole...

Katherine Suzette 1:45

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:46

that was the whole why I was like, "We have to do it as a read-along. I can't, I can't let Sage and Katherine read it beforehand and do, and do the Deep Dive version. It has to be a read-along for this moment," because that reveal is so sweet, and I wanna live vicariously through Sage and Katherine getting that again for the first time. Like, I wanted to relive it through you guys, and, I was basically... Like, when we have a text thread going, for The Kingdom Will Not Kill Me, specifically just reactions for the book, we'll post, some of them on our, on our socials, yesterday, Sage texting, "Oh my God, oh my God," 'cause Katherine hadn't read it yet, so, like, she can't give spoilers, and I'm sitting there just being like, "Yes,

Katherine Suzette 2:27

spoilers.

Zinzi Brookbree 2:28

moment.

Katherine Suzette 2:29

there.

Sage Moreaux 2:30

No,

Zinzi Brookbree 2:30

is

Sage Moreaux 2:30

I wouldn't have done it

Katherine Suzette 2:31

To each their own. I respect it

Sage Moreaux 2:33

how, well, 'cause I wanted you to have the full impact of the, like I get not minding spoilers, but I also felt like it's a, it's a good, it was very well-written

Katherine Suzette 2:42

Yes.

Sage Moreaux 2:43

action

Katherine Suzette 2:44

Yes

Sage Moreaux 2:44

it was a very excellent action scene, and the pacing, and the like suspense and everything. And then for that moment was so mind-blowing, that I didn't wanna spoil that for you. But I was like, what can I

Katherine Suzette 2:55

Yes

Sage Moreaux 2:56

spoil it, but just shows my overwhelming excitement here?

Katherine Suzette 3:00

my initial reaction though is that the authors were genius because the pieces that they had us paying attention to were the exact right thing. They were exactly what they wanted us to pay attention to. So I also felt a little bit guilty later on when I was, like, processing the fact that I didn't pick up on it. But we did pick up on, like, there's something fishy here, and it's not the Stelka

Zinzi Brookbree 3:23

You absolutely picked up on that, there is something going on with Reynald. There is, he is holding back. He's got, there's something that, like, I'm re-listening to the episodes as I'm editing them, and I'm like, "Katherine's gonna figure it out. She's so close. She's, like, right there." And I kept waiting for it, or I kept waiting for you to, like, read ahead,

Katherine Suzette 3:41

The trail did happen I might have accidentally read ahead this time. I swear I didn't do it on purpose.

Sage Moreaux 3:47

But like longer than for today is what you're saying,

Katherine Suzette 3:52

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 3:52

you had

Katherine Suzette 3:53

Yep.

Sage Moreaux 3:53

to

Katherine Suzette 3:54

Uh-huh.

Sage Moreaux 3:55

Okay.

Katherine Suzette 3:55

I waited. I was a very good girl. I deserve a pat on the head from Mr. Everand right now, Everard.

Zinzi Brookbree 4:01

Everard

Katherine Suzette 4:02

I'll take whatever, because I was a very good girl this time. I did not go past 22 until yesterday

Zinzi Brookbree 4:08

Do you hear that audience? Katherine was a good girl.

Katherine Suzette 4:12

Tell me how good I am, please

Sage Moreaux 4:14

I just would like to share that all of my suspicions about him not having a lot of, like, sorrow over his dead wife

Zinzi Brookbree 4:22

Yep

Sage Moreaux 4:23

That was a big red flag for me, and now we understand

Zinzi Brookbree 4:27

Like,

Sage Moreaux 4:27

it actually doesn't matter at all

Zinzi Brookbree 4:29

every time we tangented on what's going on with Reynald's wife, she's dead, he's a widower, how is he not sad? How have we not talked about this? And I'm sitting there dying,

Katherine Suzette 4:40

but it makes sense.

Zinzi Brookbree 4:41

in

Katherine Suzette 4:41

perfectly done by the authors

Zinzi Brookbree 4:43

I wanna say this. There were so many comments that you made, Sage, leading up to this that was like, "Man, you like you like Reynald, but he's not really, you know, he's not... all that exciting to you," or, "He's the bodyguard, and that's okay, but I really prefer the shadow daddy." And, "Oh, the age gap, the age gap bothers me." And I'm sitting there being like, "Just wait. Just wait. It's coming. Shadow daddy is coming. Lack of age gap is coming. All the things you're asking for, Sage, it's coming."

Sage Moreaux 5:13

I was just talking about how I needed a new book boyfriend, and I read this and I was like, "Yes." Perfect. All right

Zinzi Brookbree 5:20

that a- that anticipation of you finding those out and, and all of your, your wish, your book boyfriend wishlist, being fulfilled.

Sage Moreaux 5:27

I was rereading, like when I was putting together my list, I wanted to have my list of all my predictions, and I know so many of them are just out, you know, crazy and off the wall, but I wanna go through and record those and write them down so I remember them. and I was going back through chapter by chapter 'cause I have all these tags that I had done in the book, and there's the very first moment, which I think is like chapter two, where Everard shows up and gives her the coins, Maggie says, what, in her head, she says, "What is he doing here? He's not supposed to be in the city at this point." Like, this is a huge deal, and then it never is brought up again. And rereading it, I was like, oh yeah, that, he hasn't been mentioned as being seen again,

Katherine Suzette 6:08

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 6:08

I'm actually really glad that I didn't put it together because I loved how shocked I was. Shocked and amazed and, like, excited. I like sort of wish I had figured it out, and I'm also really glad I didn't. But yeah, the hints were all in there, like the whole thing about him being, looking younger, Reynald looking younger, so much younger than he was supposed to be. I thought the authors did that brilliantly, where they kind of used it as Maggie thinking maybe that she couldn't rely on the book knowledge. but really it was just like, no, actually, he's a different guy completely.

Katherine Suzette 6:42

Yeah, I mean, which does show that her book knowledge is not enough, it's not fully accurate. Things were already changing before her arrival. but, the thing with this is that my reaction was not surprise that this was Everand. I had enough suspicion that I knew something big with Reynold was coming, Everard. and so I wasn't surprised about him, but I was very... I was more than pleased that the authors had chosen this route and done it so well. Because when I read a book or I edit a book or just consider them through a professional lens, the best authors distract their audience and, like, embed the suspicion enough that they know something's coming. It builds the anticipation, but then once the thing happens, we all look back and we see the signs, the coins, her noticing his age, the way that people acted and reacted around him. All the s- all the signs were there. the only disconnection is the fact that she had met Everard, but, like, he was... W- maybe he was cowled or something. I didn't go back and read it, but she did talk about, like, how he had, toned down his power, his, his presence, something like that.

Zinzi Brookbree 7:54

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 7:55

I did think that the authors did a brilliant job of that. I was very, very pleased. I felt like they need a round of applause for doing this so fucking well

Sage Moreaux 8:05

Yeah, all the hints were there, and like you said, there was the suspicion, but they also did this great job of the red herring of the dog market killer, whatever his name is, Butcher?

Katherine Suzette 8:17

Yeah, and Goldeneyes

Zinzi Brookbree 8:19

Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 8:19

And golden eyes and, so when I was reading the attack scene, like I very much thought that the, that the butcher was gonna be somebody important and some important as I was reading it, she couldn't see his features from so far away. She like see his face. She sort of saw his face, but like there was just, it was like a distraction. I was expecting that to be the reveal, and then when it turned into this other reveal of like, it was great 'cause I was not I was w- a little worried about Reynald in the moment, right? Because Maggie was worried about him, although he was handling himself so masterfully that I wasn't actually that worried. But I was, I also knew that something was gonna happen in this chapter because Zinzi was like, "You cannot read, you know, past here." I was expecting something, but that was not the reveal I was expecting.

Zinzi Brookbree 9:09

to me,

Sage Moreaux 9:10

in hindsight

Zinzi Brookbree 9:11

this section of the book is such a beautiful example of unexpected but inevitable, right? Like, when you look back, there are so

Katherine Suzette 9:19

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 9:19

so many hints. There's a scene that I, highlighted and underlined, like was making notes in my own books, where Everard as Reynald starts to tell a story, and Gort cuts him off because he's going, "You're revealing too much information." Like, there's, there's a moment there. There's, other scenes where there's stories that even thinks, "Oh, how did, how did Reynald have that information in his head about when the Sun Margrave..." like the calendar, she had to go look it up, even though she's a wealth of information, and Reynald just knew right off the bat that, oh, this is when the Sun Margrave comes to the steps to deliver the dockets for court to the king, he had that calendar and said, "Why would Reynald that? Everard absolutely

Katherine Suzette 10:03

Yeah. I did think he had an outrageous amount of knowledge, like an unusual for his role.

Zinzi Brookbree 10:09

he'd seen all of the military magic happen. He had, the of knowledge about the story, of, the previous Duke of Selva and Everard's aunt when they went to court and met with King Sauven and there was that fight that happened, right? For him to know, why would Reynald have that much detail about that versus Everard fully, you know, that King Sauven is an ass, and even the way he talks about King Sauven, right, is just

Sage Moreaux 10:39

It was funny when he talked about himself

Zinzi Brookbree 10:41

funny when he's talking about himself, he's insulting himself. There's also moments of he asks Maggie, "What does Everard do in the future?" Right? Like, he's already mining for, what's gonna happen in the future, what is gonna be my reaction, does my reaction make sense for the context? There's something that I need to be watching out for. Like, he's already getting that, j- those details out of her even early on, as he's manipulating her and gaining her trust

Sage Moreaux 11:12

It kind of makes me think, like, all along I've been like, "Okay, is Maggie an unreliable narrator?" Right? Unre- reliable narrator is a big potential in a lot of books, where you kind of just believe this is the one person telling you all of this information, and you usually kind of The authors usually do a good job of having you believe them, right? It's, if you're going for the unreliable narrator trope, it doesn't work if you're clued in as the reader, right? It has to be a surprise later. But this is a little bit, like she didn't doubt any of the information that Reynald knew. she did mention that she was surprised he pulled that at like somehow he's just really like amazing and knowledgeable and strong, and those green eyes, and like she was already a little bit maybe easily blindsided

Zinzi Brookbree 12:01

Reynald is still, she says somewhere in the text that he was, one of the top five swordsmen in Rellas. So, like, he is someone who is famous. He is someone who is well-known. He is someone who is well-connected.

Sage Moreaux 12:13

She might have a hint of surprise here or there, but not so much that the suspicion was, like, really strong for, at least for me. Right? I was like, there's something off with Reynald, but he's growing on me. These moments he has where his eyes get extra green and he gets all kind of like, that was Everard coming through, right?

Katherine Suzette 12:32

The Demon in the Basement

Zinzi Brookbree 12:33

Yes

Sage Moreaux 12:34

but she didn't ever doubt him enough to where she didn't, and that I loved that whole thing of, like, the trust and this building of trust between the two of them, and then her guilt in the previous chapter when they almost kissed, and she was like, "I can't do it 'cause I'm lying to him." And then that for this to happen, I was just like, yes, so, so good

Katherine Suzette 12:54

but I also wanna point out that Maggie, again, the authors did this really well, they're forming Maggie to be like a representation of fans and reader fans. They literally did to Maggie what they've just done to us, and given her enough knowledge so that she thinks she knows what's coming and she's making the best plays, the best decisions according to the knowledge that she has. But those, it's the tiny little things that are woven in that become the, the biggest element of surprise. And, like, I wanna refer back to, like, the Chekhov's Gun concept that I talked about in a couple episodes ago. good writers have a really great ability of feeding these in and making them seem inconsequential, when in reality they're gonna make or break the next, like, part of this arc or this series or this book, whatever the case may be. And just my pleasure was in, like, the craft, the, the writing instinct that went into this. I had a great experience of that

Sage Moreaux 13:49

Absolutely. Maggie was going through what the readers are going through. She's also then going back in her head and thinking like, "How did I not notice this? And how did I not pay attention to that?" Just like we're thinking back to the earlier chapters of like these little hints that were woven in. She had those too, and that's just really fun to like, you know, she probably feels really like an idiot. What are you gonna do? Still gotta save the kingdom

Zinzi Brookbree 14:14

Yeah I also have to commend the authors in the setup for this, they give us going to the tea house, right? She does her spiel, and Everard doesn't say anything, because she's here talking to him as if he's Reynald which is who he looks like, and she even checks. She looked for Reynald's sword. She knows what it looks like from the books, and he had it, right? So, like, that's, "Okay, this is probably Reynald even though he doesn't look quite how I think he does." And then later on, he- she's still going, "This still feels fishy. Show me your papers." Like, she takes it that far. So the authors are already going, let's take every every chance that you and Maggie could have to suspect that he's not who he says it is, and give you a reason go, "Oh, no, he is who he says he is. Let's, let's build the trust." So, like, when this betrayal comes, when this reveal happens, you know, it can be, even though there's- it's all the subtle things in the background that are leading up to it, she did everything she could have to check his identity that she could think of, right? there wasn't a question of her being an idiot and not seeing through that part. He was actively choosing. She questioned him. He had opportunity to reveal himself, to be honest, to... And I'd also love to know, maybe this would be a fun question to ask the authors sometime, how would Everard have come around and told Maggie the truth of who he is, right? Like, what would that reveal have been? As soon as they leave the fortress that Maggie has taken possession of, as soon as they got out into the larger world, everyone else would recognize him Everard. Like, the lancer's coif can only be worn in so many places. So what was his plan? That's what I wanna know.

Katherine Suzette 16:12

there was another side to this, though. So I was so pleased at the author's skill, at the craft that they used in order to bring this about, but I was also incredibly disappointed, and not disappointed in the choices that the authors made in regards to this, but disappointed in the character. So I knew this was coming, though. I knew that there was gonna be some kind of big betrayal. Reynald was not all that he would seem. Everard built Reynald to represent these particular qualities on purpose. And I think that's another thing, though, is that he did that so on purpose, and it was so manipulative. I will be very disappointed if Maggie very quickly forgives him. Like, she better not. he better make some pretty big strides to demonstrate that he is a trustable character, or I will be very upset. Like, he can have reasons all day long. That's fine. But if they're going to build a romantic relationship between these two, there- I better believe that he is there for her and not just his own things. he's gotta choose her and make strides to kind of rectify that for me. I will be disappointed in Maggie if she's just like, "Oh yeah, plot, it makes sense." Like, no. so we shall see.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:26

something that I really enjoyed also that the authors did with Maggie, right? Like, she builds trust with Reynald, it's all of the moments of Everard peeking through that she's attracted to. Like, it's made very clear when it's, when his

Sage Moreaux 17:40

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:40

glowing, when he's doing his sword fighting, when he For Sage, too, apparently. those were the moments that you're like, "Oh, man, he's so hot," right? That's... So I appreciate that As the relationship moves forward, that Maggie gets to reconcile both the, this is the person I'm attracted to, and build a rapport with, with the full version of him and not just the facade of Reynald that's what gets to go forward in the future. And it's also part of, this betrayal, this, rug getting taken out from under Maggie's feet is part of what makes this a true slow burn Now they have to completely rebuild their foundation of trust, going forward because of this moment, and that makes me more invested in their story

Katherine Suzette 18:32

Yeah. Well, it won't be as surface level in that case, which I appreciate deeply. But that said, I remembered my other prediction, it was, like, I think episode one, I was like, "So clearly Everard's gonna be the one that is, like, her protector in the end. Somehow she ends up under the protection of Everard." And then also, Sage, last episode you said that Everard was the first on the scene, therefore it's gonna come back to him one way or another romantically, and, like, here we are, both of those things are true. Everard was presented in such a way that we knew he was suspicious of Maggie, I, I kinda wonder why is she talking to me as if I'm somebody else, or if he'd already embodied the Reynold persona, I don't know. But she recognizes so many characters, like, right off the bat based on their descriptions, and she wasn't able to identify that Reynold was Everard, which I think is interesting, and I wonder why he trusted her as much as he did, or maybe that's part of why he was so suspicious in the beginning, I don't know, because she wasn't able to identify him as being the wrong person.

Zinzi Brookbree 19:39

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 19:41

so yeah, she... He already knows that she has, like, some faulty information,

Sage Moreaux 19:45

this chapter like a- bridges more questions than it answers. Like, why was he there with Reynald's sword?

Katherine Suzette 19:53

Yeah, what was he doing there?

Sage Moreaux 19:54

was coming, right? Like, did he expect her, or was he totally like, "Who the heck is this woman, and I'm just gonna play along?" Right? So there's like all of these kind of questions around his, motivation have come up, whereas before, a lot of my questions were around I mean, I still have them, but like, why is Maggie here in the first place? How did this magic work? What is exactly going on with her being able to be reborn from the dead or survive death, right? All of those questions still exist, but now there's this whole extra layer of questions about Everard and his up on the scene in that way. I wanted to go back to Reynald was her favorite character, I think, or one of her favorite characters in the book,

Zinzi Brookbree 20:34

Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 20:35

was in his head a lot because he was a point of view character, whereas I don't believe Everard was a point of view character. she loved Reynald because of him from the book, and the moments that she was really loving him in reality or this, this reality she's found herself in are the Everard moments, right? And the other part of it, of the Reynald self is like she is imposing so much of that onto him from her

Katherine Suzette 21:04

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 21:05

from the books and from being in his head and knowing him, and that was one of the reasons she said she couldn't kiss him because she knew, like she had this unfair advantage of having known him and been in his mind, and, it's like, well, actually you don't know him at all. Really wanna talk about the scene where, Solentine comes in, too, 'cause that was amazing. But I loved it when she, I love it when she told Reynald, or told, Everard, she says, "I liked you better when you were Reynald," and he said, "I did, too." And I was like, well now you have me. Now I am like, I already was on the Everard boat from like that first moment he showed up. I was like, yes. but Reynald was growing on me, right, like I said before, and I was like, well maybe it feels like if they just end up in a relationship together it's too easy, and it feels like that's, there's not enough stakes in that. So that's why I never felt like it was gonna be the two of them as is without some kind of drama, right? but not only does Maggie have to forgive him, so does the reader, and I think probably the reader will forgive him a little more quickly. Maybe not in Katherine's case. But I was already like, I, sh- you know, Maggie is like, "He manipulated me and I'm so mad," whatever, and, like, oh no, I actually think that he really does like you, I think sure, yes, he was manipulating you, but I actually think that moment on the bench when you felt like he was all in with you, I think that was real and not a full manipulation. But that's me, 'cause I'm a romantic. So I will be an easier

Zinzi Brookbree 22:34

it to be true

Sage Moreaux 22:35

I'll like be, so I mean, maybe the authors will continue to manipulate me in that way. we shall see. But hopefully Maggie is not as much of a pushover as I am.

Zinzi Brookbree 22:45

There's, a line that I really love that Maggie thinks about when, contemplating kissing Reynald in the cemetery, and the reason that she doesn't is because she has the thought, since she's been inside his head, they will never be equal partners, and that's what she wants, right? Like, that is such a reveal of her desire and what standard Everard is gonna have to meet. At whatever point that they're a successful relationship in the future, it's because they will be equal partners, and I'm really interested to, and excited to watch that play out because Everard is the Duke of Selva. he's in, like, his power levels, his political power, and the magic that he has, and the, the persona that he has, for him and Maggie to be equal, we're gonna get to see such a cool rise in power for Maggie to make that, successful romantically, where it is not that she's... I love that she laughed when Everard is like, "She's mine. She belongs to me," and she's like, "Fuck you." Not happening,

Sage Moreaux 24:00

That

Zinzi Brookbree 24:00

and she's not a

Sage Moreaux 24:02

So good

Zinzi Brookbree 24:03

It has to be

Katherine Suzette 24:04

I thought that was in the next chapter. I don't keep track very well. I don't know how y'all are doing this

Zinzi Brookbree 24:09

That's why, that is why in our text thread I yelled at Katherine, "Do not go past chapter 23," because I love you, but I had no

Katherine Suzette 24:16

Well, well,

Zinzi Brookbree 24:16

wouldn't have

Sage Moreaux 24:17

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 24:17

up and, and revealed something too soon, and then Sage would have gotten clued in, and it would've ruined it for her. And I'm just like, "Just please,

Sage Moreaux 24:26

I hate spoilers

Zinzi Brookbree 24:27

one chapter. Listen and obey on this one chapter. The rest of the book, like I don't care..." Well, no, I do care, 'cause there are other spoilers ahead, but this one, just thank you. Thank you so much. Oh.

Sage Moreaux 24:42

I'm glad to hear there's other spoilers ahead, 'cause I was like, this is amazing. I love it. There's other things about the chapter besides just the Everard reveal that I was really loving, and I was like, but does this mean it's the end of predictions? Which then later I was like, well, no, because there's still a lot that we don't know, right? and so that like romance subplot was being built up, so this is like a big reveal for the romance subplot, but it doesn't And it is a big reveal because of, like you said, he's such a politically character, and also it's so great how he's been made out. Like, I don't think Maggie liked his character terribly much in the books, and he's made out as a you know, and that is actually my I mean, well, remains to be seen how he turns out, but my favorite one of I have two favorite male leads, and one of them is where it's like the bad boy but secretly has the heart of gold. To the world, everyone thinks he's like super ruthless and all of this, but deep down he's doing what he thinks is the right thing to do, even if it is ruthless to like protect his own or whatever. So, I'm really hoping that's the direction that this is going. my other favorite is reluctant hero, kind of like Aragorn.

Zinzi Brookbree 25:52

Yep.

Sage Moreaux 25:53

which Renault wasn't really. Like, I was like he's not, he doesn't fall in that category. He is, you know, a committed kind of like solid dude, wants to

Katherine Suzette 26:05

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 26:06

protect those of his own. I was like, yeah, that's cool.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:09

I'm

Sage Moreaux 26:09

But kind of-

Zinzi Brookbree 26:10

because Sage is like, "He's solid, he's boring. Who likes these kind of guys?"

Sage Moreaux 26:14

It's boring.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:15

But like, in real life, in real life, your, your solid, boring, like, that's who you want. In real life, you don't want the Duke of Selva. You want bodyguard,

Katherine Suzette 26:25

Speak for yourself

Zinzi Brookbree 26:26

life on the line, always shows up, right?

Sage Moreaux 26:29

No, 100%.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:30

who you want

Katherine Suzette 26:32

Yeah, that's fair

Sage Moreaux 26:33

Yes. And the reason that I don't love spoilers, I actually don't want spoilers ever, is because one of the reasons that I read is for the emotional journey, right? And so having that, having, the, like, reveals and everything is, like, how I 'Cause I like to avoid conflict in reality, but have it all through my books, and TV shows or whatever.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:53

Okay

Sage Moreaux 26:53

so having those real dramatic characters and romances and all of that stuff is, like, super fun because then I can stick with solid in reality.

Zinzi Brookbree 27:03

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 27:04

you know

Katherine Suzette 27:04

That's fair. I was having a conversation just yesterday about, like, why we want these fantasy relationships to be in extremes in some ways, because in the IRL relationships, we don't really want it to look that way. At least not, not certain aspects. But, uh, I digress. I was thinking that, like, what you've just spoken about, about Everard is, like some of his commitment to protecting his people and things like that,

Zinzi Brookbree 27:33

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 27:34

I'm gonna do a prediction here and assume that he was standing outside of that Darog's place because he witnessed or was around during Reynold's death, and Reynold was one of his people or one of his connections or something like that, and he took on the responsibility of finding Matteo or Matteo and protecting him. So I think that he was actually looking for Matteo, or that there was some other reason for him to be outside of Darog's doing what he was doing. I think that he was there for his own goals and purposes, which, you know, in the realm of writing, the best characters, even if they're side characters, they have their own goals and reasons for doing what they're doing, which brings them where they are, so that these connections are not just like, "Oh, plot reasons, I'm gonna drop a character right here so that things work out for my main character, my MC." So, you know, a prediction made, I think that he was actually looking for Matteo, or that he had some other very distinctive reason, and it had to do with Reynold specifically.

Sage Moreaux 28:39

I'm gonna counter your prediction with my own prediction, which is that he was there pretending to be Reynald because of Maggie. I would like to counter your prediction with my prediction.

Katherine Suzette 28:50

Yeah, maybe he figured something out when he gave her the coins in the very first bit. Like, he knew, he got off his horse, he made extra effort, or out of the carriage, I don't remember, to give her these coins and tell her to go get some shoes or something like that. There- maybe there was some kind of instinct or prediction that he knew of, and he was acting based on that. Like, I don't know, an oracle that said, "You'll meet a girl. You gotta, you gotta do something for her so that you can win in the end." I don't know what that looks like exactly, but yeah, I could see that being a good one as well

Sage Moreaux 29:25

I don't think we know if Reynald and, Everard ever knew each other well or, like, what their relationship was.

Katherine Suzette 29:35

I don't think so

Sage Moreaux 29:37

Reynald dying, right? he somehow knows that he fell off his horse and died three days later, and he has his papers and his sword. So

Zinzi Brookbree 29:44

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 29:45

that alone is suspicious of like, wait, I could very much see that he to Reynald as he was dying, and Reynald was like, "You have to save my son," and he remembered that his son had this foresight n- or not, it's not foresight, but he can, like, see what's happening in the moment, and that is very

Katherine Suzette 30:02

Larissa

Sage Moreaux 30:02

magic that it would be great to have in your, you

Katherine Suzette 30:06

Yeah. Maybe Yeah, he's like, "Well, Reynald is dead, I'm gonna go find and use the son instead." that would fit the character. I mean, he's built to be manipulative for his own purposes, and fortunately in this case, his own purpose is protection and saving the kingdom from ultimate disaster to the best of his ability.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:25

I do wanna do a point of clarification, 'cause this is something that the authors got asked about during an interview, is does Everard know that the lucky coin that the, that it was Maggie that he gave the coins to? And the answer is no, he has not made connection. he just knows that she has a lucky coin, does not know that it's connected to him in any way

Sage Moreaux 30:46

I

Katherine Suzette 30:46

I totally assumed he'd got that figured out

Sage Moreaux 30:48

yeah, I was like, did he recognize her? I mean, she looked like a beggar, and then she shows up looking like a, reasonably well-off woman,

Zinzi Brookbree 30:56

if you delivered some food to the homeless, right, do you think that you would recognize that person they had a good night's sleep, had a shower, was well-groomed, the difference in someone just in passing to, okay, here's a person that you're meeting for a job interview, right? we know that it's important because it's in the book, but in real life, people in passing, probably not gonna remember them

Sage Moreaux 31:27

Yeah, and like she recognized him when he handed over the coins 'cause of his horse. She recognized his horse, who is a very like distinctive horse And so she knew that that was him, although she's again making an assumption because just because somebody has somebody's sword doesn't mean it's actually the person, clearly. But she knew, she was like, "Oh shit, this is like the Duke of Salvin. He's super like intense and e- m- not exactly evil, but like this person I don't wanna engage with."

Katherine Suzette 31:58

Dangerous

Sage Moreaux 31:59

the face, right? She was trying to not be noticed.

Katherine Suzette 32:02

That's true

Sage Moreaux 32:03

he stopped, and she was like, "Oh, shit," and she kinda looked up, and sh- it did say, 'cause I went back and reread it to see, if she saw his face, and his like hood covered, she could see his jaw, and he gave her the coins and said, "Get shoes." she didn't even, 'cause I was like, did she see his green eyes? Right? 'Cause there is, when I did, I also reread when she meets for the first time, and she mentions that his eyes were more green than gray, and they were written as being gray. So I was like, oh, okay, that was a little hint that the author's woven there very subtly. That's why I was all along like I think Everard is gonna be a key player here because of that moment. That's such a classic like save the cat, save the, save the hero, save the damsel moment.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:47

So Sage, you are not listening to the audiobook, but Katherine and I are, and was a choice. I don't know if this was something that the authors talked about with the narrator or if the narrator decided on it, but, the voice that Everard does for Reynald is affected. So when he speaks as himself, as Everard, he uses a different accent, or has a different accent than the one that is used the entire time he's Reynald. So the one with

Sage Moreaux 33:17

Wow

Zinzi Brookbree 33:18

of a, like a brogue or a lilt, where he's,

Katherine Suzette 33:22

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 33:23

more, "You look good in green, Maggie," right? Like his voice is more like that versus,

Katherine Suzette 33:28

He's just like a hoity-toity European, like, the British

Zinzi Brookbree 33:34

So, she is mine. I am the Duke of Selva." Like, it's much more, it is closer to British, it is more, high class, polished. And so personally for me, I, I like, I like my men, uh, with lilts and kilts, uh, so I like the Reynald accent better and I was a little sad when he went over to the Everard, the new Everard accent. At that point, I think I switched from listening to the audiobook, and had to take a break and go and read it so that I could, like, him my own voice my head, which I've

Sage Moreaux 34:09

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 34:11

But so that's just for anyone who is, who does the audiobook, I would love to know, you know, which voice do you prefer for Everard? Do you like the Reynald voice or do you like the, the Duke, the Duke of Selva, his, voice better? Put it in the comments

Sage Moreaux 34:27

this is one reason I don't listen to audiobooks is that I do like, I, it's really challenging for me and can ruin a book if the voice isn't done in a way that I like. a lot of times the voices are great, so I'm not saying that I find that about all audiobooks, but it has happened where I've been listening to one and I'm like, "Mm, I c- now I'm c- now I have an opinion about this character based on how the narrator, "chose to, you know, present them."

Katherine Suzette 34:54

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 34:55

I have my own way of thinking about the character, of what they look like and how they sound and how their name is pronounced and everything because I'm reading on paper. but I also think he is now a new person, and we've gone along with this pres- like it's the same person, but for both Maggie and for us as readers, we have to reconcile all of the actions that he's taken as this person we enjoyed and were growing to really like with this new person that he is. And of course there's gonna be, was he just doing that to manipulate me or did he really mean it? Was he, does he really care about saving Matteo or is it just his own, his own, for his own ends, right? Like how much does he care about individuals and how much is it just for his own? And he's been presented as the person who does everything ruthlessly for his, you know, area, for his,

Zinzi Brookbree 35:53

yep

Sage Moreaux 35:53

dukedom, yeah.

Katherine Suzette 35:54

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 35:55

but also was in the cemetery in the previous chapter and Maggie asked him about his father, and I think that he was talking about his real father and he said that he was a good man but many people didn't see him that way. And I was like, I, to me that is like a example of how he probably feels about himself is that many people vilify him

Katherine Suzette 36:16

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 36:17

and, you know.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:18

absolutely does

Sage Moreaux 36:20

Mm-hmm. Yeah

Katherine Suzette 36:21

and this is classic for the authors as well, The male lead, the male interest of the female character is, often doesn't think of themselves as the good guy. Like they do what is right, but they will do anything to get to that right place. like protect their people over others at the expense of others sometimes, So I could see him still doing that, it's almost like a way of showing that the character is a really good person on the inside too, that they struggle and grapple with this outside persona, but they're still willing to embody that negative persona if it protects the ones that they love and the ones that have been placed under their care. to

Sage Moreaux 36:59

to Arvel, right? Arvel is made out as the kind of person that cares very much about how he is seen by the world, and y- this golden child, right? But he will change his, according to, well, according, to Reynald he is seen as this person who will, you know, flee to maintain his, like... You know, he doesn't wanna get into the dirt, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 37:25

Is, well, that's his interpretation for part of it. I think he actually comments more on the Duke of Selva's reasoning and less on Arvil's. I think is the one who more on personality, but I'd have to reread that particular conversation. It's

Katherine Suzette 37:47

I wanna come back to the accent. we need, as the audience, something to, communicate that he is a totally different human being right now, and, like whilst you may not get that to the degree that we do in the audiobook, in the audiobook it- I think that this might've been another like element of my disappointment, like that betrayal sensation is, is not because I'm upset about the accent, although I, I like my lilts and kilts too, but in this case it was just so clear how deep the manipulation intentionally went. Like he didn't start out from the very first moment that Maggie met him in his natural accent. He started out in Reynold's accent, which again makes me think that he was already embodying Reynold's character for some reason, and I don't real- I don't know exactly what it was yet, but he was already using that accent and things like that. And of course she did go into it with the assumption of who he was and stuff, and maybe in that moment is when he decided to be Reynold. But one way or another, he changed his, his personality, the way he communicated to a very deep degree, It's gonna take a lot for me to be like, "Yes, Maggie, go ahead."

Sage Moreaux 39:04

But there is not in the book, if you're just reading on paper, no comment thus far that his voice has changed or his enunciation or anything like that.

Zinzi Brookbree 39:15

Smoke

Sage Moreaux 39:15

bright green eyes, the smoke that comes, like this power that is emanating from him when he's like has his magic kind of flowing, that he's toning that down, that he's like tamping down this powerful piece of himself to be Renault.

Katherine Suzette 39:32

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 39:32

at this point in chapter 23, there's not a comment on his mannerisms or his voice. So that is something that comes through probably more in the audiobook. Maybe it comes up at a later point. Maybe she starts noticing in future chapters like discrepancies with how he acts or whatever. so remains to be seen. But for the, 'cause I didn't get the feeling that his voice had changed at all, his like authority, his like of the situation. He's now Duke of Selva. He's commanding. He's, you know, "She's mine. We're no longer equal partners. The, I've got this situation under control." Like it, the dynamic and w- maybe we should go into talking about when they do get home, although there was a magic piece that I wanted to talk about

Zinzi Brookbree 40:15

It's like we just like skip the fight scene. We're just like the reveal. Yeah, so let's go back to the fight scene.

Sage Moreaux 40:20

He really didn't want Maggie to find out during this fight, right? He was like, didn't want her to show up at, he didn't want her to go, and he used all these reasons why, yeah, stay inside, trust me right? Like,

Katherine Suzette 40:34

I'm so glad she didn't trust him

Sage Moreaux 40:36

sh-

Katherine Suzette 40:36

orders

Sage Moreaux 40:37

He u- he used his green flame blade or whatever it's called to, which is a Dungeons Dragons spell, so

Zinzi Brookbree 40:45

until it became necessary to protect her, right?

Sage Moreaux 40:48

I agree

Katherine Suzette 40:49

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 40:50

he would have let The Butcher go probably, and just been like, "We'll find another way to catch him," because the value of having Maggie's trust was higher, and having Maggie is higher than defeating The Butcher in that particular moment

Sage Moreaux 41:04

Absolutely.

Katherine Suzette 41:05

Yes, but I...

Sage Moreaux 41:06

him, right? Like, he wouldn't

Katherine Suzette 41:09

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 41:09

himself

Katherine Suzette 41:09

She's not 100% all in in the sense that she will follow his order to a T. I think part of that's her personality and part of it's that if she fully, completely trusted him 100%, zero doubt in her mind, I think that she would have left it alone and done what he'd asked her to do. Maybe not, maybe not.

Zinzi Brookbree 41:30

was she was protecting Lute. Like, in her mind, Butcher was

Katherine Suzette 41:34

That's true

Zinzi Brookbree 41:34

alleyway that, and, or he was gonna use the more beads and he was gonna get away. And those two outweighed stay out of danger.

Katherine Suzette 41:44

That's fair.

Zinzi Brookbree 41:45

like,

Katherine Suzette 41:45

That's fair. So maybe she did 100% trust him, but

Zinzi Brookbree 41:48

If Lute gets killed by The Butcher, he's not coming back."

Sage Moreaux 41:51

yeah, and I, but I also think that she has serious FOMO. Like, she doesn't wanna miss a s- like, an exciting She was not gonna just stay home and wait. She needed to be there,

Zinzi Brookbree 42:01

No.

Sage Moreaux 42:01

She hated being left home from the market, even though there was a good reason. she is gonna participate. This is her deal. She is here saving the kingdom, and she's not gonna just sit home and wait like a good little girl, right? so I think, and I think he recognized, like, he could try and tell her all day long to stay home, and she's like, "No, I'm not going to," and he's like, "Okay, well,

Zinzi Brookbree 42:21

Yep.

Sage Moreaux 42:22

then just please stay inside the room."

Zinzi Brookbree 42:25

what's he gonna do? Lock her up at home? That would breach her trust too, right? Like, you can't... He did the, the, the

Sage Moreaux 42:32

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 42:33

could.

Sage Moreaux 42:34

So I wanted to say that with this, this fight scene was so suspensefully done regardless of the reveal. Even if that hadn't been a piece of it, the amping up of the magic was really great, and I really loved, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 42:47

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 42:47

all along, magic's been talked about, but we haven't really witnessed any, to my knowledge.

Zinzi Brookbree 42:54

magic was seen when Maggie went into the Garden of Soft Blossoms. There is a performance that is being done that is a magical performance, by a mage and like that's Maggie's first interaction with magic is those golden butterflies that swarm her, and then that had come from like a different magical animal that they had been pretending to be before.

Sage Moreaux 43:17

That's the only, and then the flying, the creatures flying around. There was like magical creatures that we've seen besides the

Zinzi Brookbree 43:23

Yep

Sage Moreaux 43:23

that's one of my predictions is that those golden butterflies swarmed her for a reason. outside of that, and that was early on, we haven't seen a lot of magic, and we've just been hearing about it, and I love magic so much, and I've been desperately waiting for there to be magic, which is one of the reasons I've been wanting all these nobles to show up, because it seems like these eight families are the ones with magic.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:43

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 43:44

Come on. so when, Solentine showed up the butcher at first had some magic, and he started getting super speedy, I can't remember which magic showed up first, but I think the butcher started purple, having a purple glow and getting super fast, and that, I was like, ma-

Katherine Suzette 44:02

A blur.

Sage Moreaux 44:02

mind

Katherine Suzette 44:03

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 44:03

then, like 'cause I was still, this was before the reveal, and I was thinking about like who is he?

Katherine Suzette 44:08

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 44:08

and when he started having magic, to me that's like, I, I don't know enough about magic in Rellas to know like is it just the eight families? There are these more beads that are some kind of magic, so maybe, maybe he's not one of the f- eight family members, and this purple glow is fr- an effect from a spell or a potion or something like that, right? But so that started, and I was like, "Yes, magic, finally. Great swordsplay and also magic." And then Solentine comes running in with his like silver magic glow, I, I was just like, at that point, I didn't even care what else happened in the, I thought, in the chapter. I was so genuinely pleased with like all of

Zinzi Brookbree 44:49

is

Sage Moreaux 44:49

the magic and the like intense sword fighting and yeah, it

Katherine Suzette 44:54

Yeah. I was definitely wondering though, did we know that Solentine was gonna be in on this fight? Because otherwise, like if I was supposed to know, I fucking missed it. But when he was there, I was like, "Why is he there?" And I was like totally distracted by the fact that Solentine was there and was like climbing walls and windows and shit, as opposed to like The Butcher and the magic and stuff. I was caught up on the fact, I was like, "Why the f- why is he there? I don't get this." like and I was like, "Did Reynold let him know? Did Reynold have a connection? What happened there?" So this is one of those like missing pieces sorry.

Zinzi Brookbree 45:27

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 45:28

yeah, just wanted to point out, I was distracted from the magic by the fact that Solentine was there

Zinzi Brookbree 45:34

So it's one of the conversations that I've seen float around on Reddit is, you know, how did Solentine know? And the theory is, is that the house, because of Maggie, right, making a deal with Solentine and the Shearers, the house is being watched by the Shearers.

Katherine Suzette 45:50

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 45:50

to start this mission, there's a Shearer agent who has been watching, the house and their interactions and following them when they leave. And when the fight starts, the thought is that the Shearers agent goes and tells, informs Solentine what's happening, and that's what makes him book it to the scene because he's been searching for Everard for the past 19 days.

Sage Moreaux 46:12

I was also shocked that Solentine showed up, but I was more surprised that he had magic, although I do think it mentioned at one point that he is related to one of the houses

Zinzi Brookbree 46:21

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 46:22

Why? Just, like, I don't know, he's a spymaster. I figured it's like Robin Hood. Robin Hood didn't have magic.

Zinzi Brookbree 46:27

like,

Sage Moreaux 46:28

He could get in your window

Zinzi Brookbree 46:29

grappling hook that's invisible that I didn't see claw onto my window, and then he climbed through the window in..

Katherine Suzette 46:35

he personally delivered, why wouldn't he personally keep an eye on them at least once or twice? So I'm, I'm surprised that, like, hi- he or his network failed him in the sense that he didn't know where Everard was this whole time, that I think that that's a fault for Solentine, not, like, on the writer's part, but for the character himself, that his network is not perfect. Because if it was as good as we are led to believe it is, I think that he would have recognized that that was Everard. I mean, they were also practicing swordsmanship and things in the courtyard, and Everard didn't have a cowl on at that time, so you know, what the fuck, Solentine? Come on.

Sage Moreaux 47:14

Have grappled onto the roof and jumped down through. Yeah, I didn't think too hard about it. I was just like, that's, like, ooh,

Katherine Suzette 47:21

Yeah. I was just like, "Oh, okay, so he's extra special and he can do that. Why not?" It's an impenetrable force- fortress unless a window is open and Solentine's the one trying to get in.

Sage Moreaux 47:30

I would also say that, like what was he, what was his plan? I guess he ran up the wall because Gort turned around and noticed him, 'cause Maggie would gesture and was like, "Behind you," right? And he-

Zinzi Brookbree 47:43

an attack

Sage Moreaux 47:44

Okay, so his plan wasn't to run up the wall onto the roof and check out what was happening before acting. He was running to support Everard in some way, right? Okay. Yes. I was surprised by his magic, and I guess this was like the second moment of magic, and it's masterful for the authors also of like don't just get Everard's green laser. They build it up by having these other pieces of magic first. So it's almost like you're distracted from... It's still Reynold. He doesn't have magic, right? You're distracted, and that was like when he then did, like it was a split second and I caught it myself pretty quickly because the magic had just been described very recently, the, the four kinds of battle magic. But like,

Zinzi Brookbree 48:33

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 48:34

we don't recognize with the purple magic, and then we have Solantene showing up with silver magic, and then Reynold has green magic and I was like, wait, what? Is he from one of the... And then I was like, oh my God. I know, and it hit me, right? but so just the building up of those other magics was enough to kind of make that moment even more impactful or like surprising

Zinzi Brookbree 48:56

Are we finally ready to talk about, being in the room, the conversation? Maggie's in there, Solantine swoops in from the window, and he's all like, "Don't go anywhere." And Everard walks in and just takes command

Sage Moreaux 49:12

Volentine is like a

Katherine Suzette 49:13

Yep

Sage Moreaux 49:13

I'm sorry. I was like, I kinda liked him before, and now I'm like, you're a total asshole and I no longer enjoy you as a character.

Katherine Suzette 49:22

Now I get what Maggie saw in him before

Sage Moreaux 49:26

Y- why she wasn't gonna choose him as a love interest

Zinzi Brookbree 49:29

As a romantic

Katherine Suzette 49:30

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 49:31

But she always kind of liked him as a character, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 49:34

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 49:34

she

Katherine Suzette 49:35

I still like him as a character.

Zinzi Brookbree 49:36

him.

Katherine Suzette 49:37

He's still a big dick

Zinzi Brookbree 49:37

Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 49:38

I don't think she really likes him so much anymore now that she's like, he was basically like, "You believe this woman? gonna kill her. She's a loose end. stop being swayed by a pretty girl." Kinda very demeaning

Katherine Suzette 49:53

also understood his reasoning, and his reasoning was good for his case, his perspective. It was understandable. I don't think that that would make it okay to just murder her, but I think that she may still hate him as a dude now, but still have an appreciation for the fact that like, yeah, his reasoning of the event, made sense, and I think that's why she gave him all of the information that she did. the whole book that she remembered. She handed it to Solentine, because Solentine was the one who needed that information. So she still trusted him with far more information than he absolutely needed. So I think that she doesn't hate the character. She understands him

Zinzi Brookbree 50:31

She's just mad in this moment

Katherine Suzette 50:33

She's, yeah, she's mad at him and, like, offended maybe, like, don't kill me kind of stuff, but she still gives him all of that information.

Zinzi Brookbree 50:42

I just love the interaction because it's like they go into this room, right, and Everard and Solentine are having this conversation, and in Solentine's mind, I'm sure he's thinking, Everard and I are the two big fish in this room, right? And Maggie's sitting there being like, Everard's a fricking whale and you're

Katherine Suzette 51:01

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 51:01

I just don't care about you in this moment after what just happened between me and this dude. we get Solentine, we get from this conversation and his perspective, his relationship with Everhard, um, oh no, Everhard

Sage Moreaux 51:20

Oh dear. That, now we're, we're not

Katherine Suzette 51:24

I mean, maybe.

Zinzi Brookbree 51:26

Yeah, and I can't unhear that

Sage Moreaux 51:29

Which does make me excited for our next episode where we get to talk, 'cause I did read chapter 24 and we get to talk about some of the stuff in that one, but we'll get there.

Zinzi Brookbree 51:37

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 51:38

we had heard about their relationship, right? Like, we knew that they had a relationship that ended in a falling out of some sort, which I guess hasn't happened yet. but so that's to come. we knew like theoretically that Maggie knew that those two were allied loosely at least. But to see it happen in the room in front of her, especially with her so mad, was such a great dynamic moment where they were having their whole

Katherine Suzette 52:03

Hello

Sage Moreaux 52:04

of their like back and forth ally and she was just pissed.

Katherine Suzette 52:07

Well, and they were talking over and around her

Sage Moreaux 52:09

and if this was like her being able to witness this and not after this huge betrayal, she probably would have been fascinated by it as the lover of the books, right? But now she is so much a character. She has become a character in the books herself.

Zinzi Brookbree 52:25

There's, the dynamic in this room, right, is fascinating as a writer because you've got the tension between Solentine's mad at Everard, Everard is trying to repair things with Maggie, Maggie is pissed at, back at Everard, and exasperated then with Solentine, right? Like, the levels of tension in the, in the conversation that's going on here. But also you've got the undercurrent of when Everard comes into the room, the first thing he asks is if Maggie is hurt. Like, is she okay? Did she get hurt, right? Like, his focus, even though Solentine's there and fricking losing his mind, his focus is still Maggie and their dynamic. That's the more important thing. Everything that he does in that room is for Maggie's protection, is

Sage Moreaux 53:16

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 53:16

relationship. He does comment that she might be wrong on dates, right? Like, that she gets that messed up. Some things aren't perfect, but other than that, she is right about what is going to happen. and that is all to get Solentine on their side, and to me, in this moment, like, if Solentine had made, "Choose me or her," like, who are you gonna pick, would've been like, "Okay, leave." Like,

Sage Moreaux 53:42

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 53:42

would've just been, Maggie is too valuable to him,

Sage Moreaux 53:46

And it be- it was

Katherine Suzette 53:47

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 53:47

that was the undercurrent of what he was saying. he didn't straight up say leave, but he was basically like, "You're not gonna change my mind. She's mine.

Zinzi Brookbree 53:57

her mind. You

Sage Moreaux 53:57

You can't touch her."

Zinzi Brookbree 53:59

kill her. These people work for me. Touch her and die.

Katherine Suzette 54:04

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 54:04

off.

Zinzi Brookbree 54:05

of that conversation

Sage Moreaux 54:07

Mm-hmm

Katherine Suzette 54:07

Yeah, but in this moment, I don't know that he knows yet that she's mine means she's more than a pawn to me that belongs to me. Like, I want to use her knowledge and use her. I think he has a suspicion that he's falling for her or that he wants more, but, at this point in time, I don't know if his budding romance with her outweighs how Maggie's knowledge is useful for him. So she's mine can mean she's my tool to use, like hands off, or if it's like, she's mine because I am claiming her romantically, and maybe will also use her as a pawn, so hands off. You know, I, I don't know to which degree he means it, and I don't know if he knows it yet either, and I'm expecting that we will learn later on when he finally does what we all know he's gonna have to do at some time, which is confess some of these things. But, in this moment, I don't know that he knows she's mine is romantic possession

Sage Moreaux 55:13

It'll be interesting to see how the slow burn works in this book, and I imagine Zinzi can't. And then throughout the rest of the series, like a slow burn is a hard thing to write because you have to have reasons the characters are together but not getting together, and like this was a huge one, right? They were very close to getting together, and Maggie had reservations around her own knowledge, which now none of those kind of apply. I mean, yes, technically he's still a character in a book that she's read, but she hasn't She doesn't know him the way that she felt like she know- knew Reynold, right? so there'll be a time where she's mad at him, but they're still working together, and like is that gonna maintain throughout the entire thing? When the big love confession comes out, is that chapter, final chapter of book three? Probably not, I'm gonna guess. But then you also have to have ways of like blocking them to keep the slow burn going 'cause a part of the problem with slow burn is that once you, once it's no longer, once they consummate,

Zinzi Brookbree 56:16

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 56:16

You have to still maintain tension in some way, right? That often is when people lose interest, or it becomes less exciting, and often that final all in happens at the very end of the book because of the nature of a slow burn. so it'll be like what else is gonna come up to ta- pull them apart from each other, and there could be so many different things that I don't need to get into, thinking about right now. But I, as far as his comment on she's mine, I would imagine that his, like when he was really impressed by her, her like strategic and intellectual It's kind of amazing that she was a grocery deliver- I guess she decided she didn't like working in the criminal justice system, and she went with groceries instead. But like she's so clever and, has such a strategic mind, and I imagine that's extremely appealing to somebody of his nature.

Katherine Suzette 57:09

Yes

Sage Moreaux 57:09

like, "She's mine because I need this strategic information," I imagine he's also like, "And that's hot," you know?

Katherine Suzette 57:17

Absolutely. I mean, and I think that, like, even if he hasn't had a self-confrontation about it yet, I think that this is a slip, in a sense, that I think exposes his underlying feelings that he will later on see as, like, the moment that he'd owned that, even if he hadn't consciously become aware of that romantic, like the deeper level of that romantic connection and, and desire and ownership, yet. Like, I, I just don't know if he's had that self-confrontation at this point, but he might have realized it when Maggie was running after the butcher. Or when she, when he thought that she was hurt, or when he's in that room and Solentine is threatening her, and he's like, absolutely not. She's mine." And then, like, maybe later on he's like, "Wait, she's mine? What the heck?"

Sage Moreaux 58:07

I did say, I will say green flag when she, after Solentine leaves, and Everard tries to talk to her, and she's like, "Get out," and he does. He just, like, walks out of the room,

Katherine Suzette 58:16

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 58:17

her door before he speaks to

Katherine Suzette 58:18

Yes.

Sage Moreaux 58:19

and I was like, points

Katherine Suzette 58:20

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 58:20

if he didn't listen, that would've been, like, a huge no.

Katherine Suzette 58:23

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 58:23

recognizing that he fucked up big time. I mean, whether or not he thinks he would do it any differently if he had it to do over again, there might also be a piece of you that's relieved, right? Like, I've been deceiving this woman who I am working with and maybe starting to have feelings for or something complicated, and it would be so great if she could know who I am and accept me for who I am. a classic trope with the kind of, like, bad boy is that they have really low self-esteem, and they never believe that they could be loved. I don't know if that's the case for him, but that's often the case of, like, she could never actually love

Katherine Suzette 58:58

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 58:58

because I'm so messed up. I probably will finish reading the entire book before going back and rereading, which I'm looking forward to doing with this knowledge now to, like, reassess the interactions between them because she's like, "He's manipulated me all along," and yes, totally, he has been because he's been lying to her about who he is and using her knowledge, I can't wait to go back and dissect it even more, and I guess

Katherine Suzette 59:29

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 59:29

deep dive pajama party, we'll get to talk more about that kind of stuff yeah. I mean, pretending to be someone you're not is a bigger betrayal, and I just don't know how you would go about saying, "Well-

Zinzi Brookbree 59:41

real person, you're a character in a book?

Sage Moreaux 59:44

Well, I mean, that is a big betrayal also of not... I don't know how you would go about telling a person that, though.

Zinzi Brookbree 59:50

think- does someone not think that she's crazy when she has that conversation? Like, the amount

Sage Moreaux 59:55

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 59:56

to build up for when she has that conversation, that reveal, right, of I'm from an entirely different universe, and in my universe I knew about you and have these opinions about you and have this knowledge because I read two books about you that somebody wrote.

Sage Moreaux 1:00:14

Mm-hmm. So yeah, they're both just basically holding things, you know, it's not a, it's not a honest upfront, this whole trust me was so great all through because it was like, "Trust me, trust me," this building of trust of this thread, which, you know, has made this moment. He still does not know how she is getting her information and where she's from. So she is at this point keeping things from him, which I imagine she will continue to do for some time because that she's pissed. if you're pissed, you're not gonna be like, "Well, now let me tell you my truth."

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:45

Let

Sage Moreaux 1:00:45

You're gonna be like, Fuck you. I don't wanna talk to you. Leave me alone."

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:49

honestly, it says so much about how much Maggie likes Solentine and his family, right? one, it's a way to prove she has knowledge, but also she went, "Here, let me save your uncle from losing the entire estate, the winery that your family treasures, if you get there in time to make sure that this deal doesn't happen." She coulda just been like, "Well, screw you. You wanna off me. this is gonna happen, but too bad, you're not gonna be able to do anything about it." she coulda let it happen and let him get screwed over, and let the family get screwed

Katherine Suzette 1:01:23

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:24

not

Katherine Suzette 1:01:24

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:25

person

Sage Moreaux 1:01:27

She could have told him his backstory that no one else knew to prove herself as having magical knowledge,

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:33

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 1:01:34

and not, and kept that detail out,

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:36

Yeah I will put a link in the comments. There is a bonus scene from Solentine's point of view after this interaction, when he is headed home to his family estate to go, check if Maggie is correct. So I will link that in the show notes, and I will send a link to, Sage and Katherine so you guys can read that, tidbit as well from the author's blog

Katherine Suzette 1:02:01

Fantastic.

Sage Moreaux 1:02:01

Which

Katherine Suzette 1:02:02

I, like the writer in me/the coach in me is like super pleased by the fact that the authors have some of this extra bonus content, 'cause I don't know if they created it after or before, but again, a lot of writers are over-writers, and oftentimes they start out with multi-POVs in which they explore all these things from multiple perspectives. So I have a deep appreciation for their choice to not only hone in on just Maggie's POV, but to also release some of these bonus things as extra content. Love it.

Sage Moreaux 1:02:33

one of the things as a writer that's First person is so great 'cause you can really be in the person's head, right, the character's head, and you can explore everything and you see it only through their eyes. But that's also a challenge, 'cause you don't get to be somewhere that that first person is not. And Maggie has this unique situation where she knows all of this extra knowledge that she shares out, so we get to know characters a little differently through this perspective. But to then be able to be in another character's head, yeah, that's super fun

Zinzi Brookbree 1:03:00

to my knowledge, there is going to be companion book that the authors are going to self-publish at some point that will have, all of these bonus scene snippets in it, as well as, like, cut scenes from the books are gonna end up in this, along with, extra art. I don't know when that that will get published, just that, that is in the works and something that they've commented, that they're planning to do, and I'm

Katherine Suzette 1:03:26

that.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:03:26

for that.

Katherine Suzette 1:03:27

Use your overwriting for your fans'

Zinzi Brookbree 1:03:29

Yes, the horde is hungry. Feed us, please. but in the meantime, as they release different snippets, and as it's relevant to the podcast, I will be linking those for the audience, so you can find them, 'cause they're not always obvious on the blog. Sometimes they're tucked away in something else. this Solentine POV is actually part of article around the Owlcrate release of This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me, and the reason is because, Owlcrate has had a contract with House Andrews where there's two bonus scenes at the end of the book that they have exclusive rights to for about two years, until House Andrews can, like, release it on their blog or put it into this other companion book. So there are a lot of readers who are desperate to get their hands on the Owlcrate version because of these bonus scenes at the end of the book, and they were very upset when, the backlog that Owlcrate had of those books sold out.

Katherine Suzette 1:04:29

I was just about to, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:30

bonus...

Katherine Suzette 1:04:30

buy it.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:32

Nope, nope.

Katherine Suzette 1:04:33

Damn

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:33

to look on a secondhand market, there are resellers selling their copy for, like, 250,

Katherine Suzette 1:04:40

Good grief

Sage Moreaux 1:04:41

And this is with the different cover? Is that what's

Zinzi Brookbree 1:04:43

It's different cover. It's got... It's beautiful. It's a beautiful book, but it is not a $300, $200-plus level of... I would rather that money be spent on something that the authors put together themselves than that extra money go to a reseller, right? anyway, but a discussion of that Owlcrate whole fiasco, is part of why the authors released this Solentine POV snippet, a little bit to pacify the horde, and the readers, and those who feel like they are missing out on this other information that's in the Owlcrate edition. I know, I have not read specifically what was written, but I have read a summary, so I do know what is contained therein for podcast purposes of, you know, knowledge of end of book when we're talking about spoilers and such for our pajama party.

Sage Moreaux 1:05:38

I wanna appreciate you, Zinzi, for sharing this out with us because I am trying so hard, like I can't even look, I can't look on social media, I can't search, I mentioned that before. I don't wanna search it or look at fan art or anything like that because even just opening our podcast page on Instagram and we follow the authors, then I'm seeing posts that they're making and I haven't finished the book. I'm like, I don't, I don't even wanna look in case there's a word or an image that gives something away that catches my eye and I then start, you know, overthinking it. So I appreciate

Katherine Suzette 1:06:09

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 1:06:10

up very clearly at specific times, now you can go read this scene that exists and here's the link.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:06:17

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 1:06:17

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 1:06:18

Well, and even some of them on the author's blog, right? They have safe to read after page XYZ, you know, for certain, 'cause there are, there are other scenes coming up that I will also direct you to at the correct time. yeah, it's just, it's House Andrews is amazing, the level of fan interaction, and, I'm writing this story. Here's an extra snippet," all of the things that they give to their readers. Like, I am amazed because I have heard so many other authors' experiences where they have had negative interactions that have forced them to get off of social media, that they can't have a blog, that they can't interact with their readers or their fans because things can go negatively. And so, just that they're willing to put themselves out there and their work out there so much is amazing and, and sometimes terrified for them 'cause while the horde seems to be kind, it is also very thirsty

Sage Moreaux 1:07:21

Mm-mm.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:07:21

Very hungry. the book de- devouring horde, which is the fans, right? Like, they're aptly named. It's the, the fandom's amazing and terrifying all at once. Said as a

Sage Moreaux 1:07:34

And

Zinzi Brookbree 1:07:35

joined said fandom

Sage Moreaux 1:07:37

I read this chapter yesterday and then I was like, all I could think about was what had happened and like what had previously happened. Like it was just like going crazy in my mind, and I thought to myself, "This is the amazing thing about being an author, is that you can just like mess with your audience's emotions," and it's gold, right? But like also you're setting yourself up for some people having some strong feelings about it. So you might have people who love it, and you might ha- get some, you know, so you kill off a favorite character and oh my God, your audience might be, your fan base could be totally freaking out about it

Zinzi Brookbree 1:08:18

We are going to work on wrapping up because, as Sage noted, we could talk about this chapter 23 for an hour. We have now recorded for two hours on this topic,

Sage Moreaux 1:08:29

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:08:30

that said, thank you so much for joining us. Your homework for the next episode is to read chapters 24 to the end of 25. Just two chapters. Should be easy.

Katherine Suzette 1:08:41

I really messed it up

Zinzi Brookbree 1:08:43

outside the podcast, you can find us at bookdragoninc.com, as well as over on Substack with me for my, Write With Me Zinzi Bree writing sprints community. we'd love for you to check those out. You can find the information in the show notes. if you just like our book stuff here, you can also check out the podcast Substack. You can support us there directly and get, bonus information as to what we're up to. thank you so, so much to our subscriber, Ria Nancoo, for supporting us all this time. If you would like to support us, Substack is the way to do it. otherwise, you can leave us a review. It helps little indie podcasts like ours get noticed. thank you so much for tuning in, and as Maggie says, "Yes, that's exactly it, all of the seducing." Thank you so much for joining us. See you next time.

Katherine Suzette 1:09:36

Oh, I love how she does it so sarcastically. Yes, exactly. That's it. All of the seducing.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:09:42

Oh.

Katherine Suzette 1:09:43

Clearly

Zinzi Brookbree 1:09:46

Literally, it's the seducing. the seduction totally worked on you, Solentine, and when it didn't work because it didn't 'cause I didn't even try with you, I obviously moved on to a person I completely thought was somebody else.

Sage Moreaux 1:09:59

Yeah. Totally.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:10:00

this whole time. Right? Solentine

Sage Moreaux 1:10:02

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:10:02

he's been pretending to be Renault this whole time. He's just going, "Oh, she targeted you 'cause you're Everard, of course."