Murderboard! - Chapters 18-22 This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me Read Along

This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me Read-Along: The Butcher Appears, Kaiden’s Family Tree, and an Almost Kiss (Ch. 18–22)

In this episode of Book Dragon Banter Sage, Katherine, and Zinzi Bree discuss chapters 18–22 of This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews, covering Maggie’s market outing with Reynald and Clover, the return of the mysterious “Goldeneyes from the Garden,” and the grim discovery of a staged murder that Maggie identifies as the work of a serial killer. They debate suspects, the timeline accelerating as the story “reasserts itself,” and Maggie’s murder-board-style warning about upcoming assassinations and Matheo’s foretold death. They celebrate solving the fish mystery, highlight Maggie’s compassionate handling of Kaiden’s stealing and her gift of a literal family tree burial site for his parents’ ashes, and analyze tense visits from Drugh and Earl Berengur, Shod’s information-selling, knightly honor, and the cemetery scene where Maggie and Reynald nearly kiss.

From the House Andrews Blog:

Cast of Characters: https://ilona-andrews.com/blog/this-kingdoms-cast-of-characters/

How the Magic works (with book 2 snippet): https://ilona-andrews.com/blog/but-how-do-the-fancy-spells-work-cousin/

Order the TKWNKM Vellum inserts here: https://ilonaandrewsstore.com/

Podcast links:

Book Dragon Banter Substack - https://bookdragonbanter.substack.com/

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd

Other links:

Book Dragon Ink Online Writing Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats

Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Book Dragon Ink: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Our Summer Read-Along: This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me (Bookshop.org affiliate link): 

https://bookshop.org/p/books/this-kingdom-will-not-kill-me-ilona-andrews/f544c8f1dba95f55?ean=9781250377265&next=t&aid=124342&listref=book-dragon-book-club-reads

00:00 Episode Hook and Setup

00:33 No Spoilers Readalong Rules

02:03 Kindle Spoiler Close Calls

04:19 Recap Starts Chapter 18

04:49 Market Clues and Goldeneyes

10:52 Romance Theories and Suspects

15:40 Maggie Origin Isekai Theory

18:02 Serial Killer and Timeline Shift

28:32 Fish Mystery and Kaiden Family Tree

32:43 Names vs Impressions

33:25 Fantasy Scale and Caretaking

34:32 Cemetery Trees and Rituals

35:24 Drugh Seeks Revenge

37:38 Earl Berengur and Trauma

40:15 Spycraft and Shod

40:54 Knighthood and Honor

44:27 Almost Kiss Debate

47:26 Writers as Gods

51:53 Magic Families Theories

58:07 Spoiler Teases and Merch

01:01:26 Homework and Signoff

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:00

A serial killer is on the loose, the fish mystery is solved, Kaiden gets a family tree, and Maggie and Reynald almost kiss. Welcome, We See The Assassins Have Failed. We are a book, jargon, banner, a podcast where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy focused, but not exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me, Zinzi Bree, as we read This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Yona Andrews. All for the love of story. That felt like doing, trying to do like an-

Sage Moreaux 0:26

That was too fast

Zinzi Brookbree 0:28

I was like trying to be an auctioneer.

Katherine Suzette 0:29

it

Sage Moreaux 0:32

Oh yeah, but it didn't rhyme enough

Zinzi Brookbree 0:34

this is a read-along mini season where we'll be covering a section of chapters each episode. Read or reread along with us. We'll be keeping spoilers out as we're saving them for our mini-season wrap-up pajama party. I have already read the books multiple times, so I am testing Sage and Katherine's self-control to not read ahead with this one. So far, Katherine's track record has not been good. Katherine, how you doing?

Katherine Suzette 0:56

Did it this time. Twice

Zinzi Brookbree 0:59

You went past twice? Or you managed to stay

Katherine Suzette 1:03

I was a good girl two times in a row.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:06

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 1:07

it twice and stuck to my chapters But Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:13

We're so proud of you

Katherine Suzette 1:14

mean, the temptation to just go ahead and just, like, not tell you was there, but I didn't, I promise, and I

Zinzi Brookbree 1:20

If you had, I would have known, your, your facial expressions and your comments for the rest of this recording would have told me that you went ahead, which is why I was like in the text yelling at you guys, Do not go past chapter 23."

Sage Moreaux 1:38

Which

Zinzi Brookbree 1:38

My mic is totally gonna be like, "Don't do that."

Katherine Suzette 1:40

time

Sage Moreaux 1:41

Now I know something happens in chapter 23. What is it? So many theories.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:47

Cut that out. e- building your anticipation

Sage Moreaux 1:52

chapter 23 script is here sitting here in our script folder, and I'm just gonna ignore that.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:57

Nope, you have to. It's not finished. Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 2:00

But

Zinzi Brookbree 2:00

Later today.

Sage Moreaux 2:01

I kind of

Zinzi Brookbree 2:02

Later tomorrow.

Sage Moreaux 2:02

over

Zinzi Brookbree 2:03

this week

Sage Moreaux 2:04

but I started reading it on my Kindle and, which I, which was great, and I was like, great, okay, so now I can easily highlight things and whatever and it's just a different reading experience. But then I accidentally somehow, like I put my Kindle down when it was open and it jumped ahead to this like way farther in the book, and when I picked it up, I started reading it, and it was about some auburn-haired man. And I was like, "Don't, don't keep reading. Put it away, put it away." And then as I mentioned, I don't really love auburn hair as a love interest, so I was really hoping that wasn't what was going on. But I guess we will see, and I'm not even gonna look at Zinzi. so yeah, there was that.

Zinzi Brookbree 2:41

I'm just laughing at you

Sage Moreaux 2:42

totally aside moment, but I was like, oh my God, I'm glad I caught myself as quickly as I did. And then I did the same thing with chapter 23, where I had finished reading chapter 22 and put it away. And then since it's my Kindle, I went to read another book that I'm reading on there and I open it up, and usually it's on that other book, but nope, there it was on chapter 23 and I started reading and I got like Two, sentences in and I was like, okay. So I stopped

Zinzi Brookbree 3:08

two sentences are acceptable

Sage Moreaux 3:10

It was just enough to like, I don't even remember what happened, it was just like a little scene setting, and it was just enough to get me like, I think maybe Maggie is hanging out in this big scenario that's gonna go down, I assume.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:21

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 3:21

but

Katherine Suzette 3:22

Yeah,

Sage Moreaux 3:23

I, I was like, oh, backtrack, backtrack, okay.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:26

stop looking at it, Katherine. Stop it. Stop looking

Katherine Suzette 3:30

Okay, but the, the magical moment happened. You know that, like, book reader's favorite moment where you're like, "I just wanna open my book," and it always opens to the right place without me having to dogear or use a bookmark? It just happened. It

Zinzi Brookbree 3:42

What did, what did it open to? Isn't that, like, the

Sage Moreaux 3:44

start reading.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:45

center of the book?

Sage Moreaux 3:46

read it.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:47

Hello, my dog is saying hi. we totally missed some of our intro stuff, like, that said, we're an explicit podcast, so we can give our honest and filtered opinions. Yes, hi. Are you coming to say hello, pretty girl? You're bumping my microphone. If you've been reading along, you should be fresh on the details. If you need a reminder of what went down, you can find our chapter recaps on our YouTube channel. With that said, let's get into it. If you need a reminder of what went down, you can find our chapter recaps on our YouTube channel. With that said, let's get into it. Start out at the beginning of chapter 18. We are with Maggie and Reynald and Clover in the market, shopping for some mushrooms, magic mushrooms, that keep food from going bad, which I thought was a really cool detail, 'cause, like, you don't have... Yeah, you do. I mean, maybe. No?

Sage Moreaux 4:41

It says they're not edible. I'm just saying. It said

Zinzi Brookbree 4:43

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 4:44

edible

Zinzi Brookbree 4:44

Not those kind of mushrooms.

Katherine Suzette 4:46

if that's like the...

Sage Moreaux 4:48

That we know of.

Zinzi Brookbree 4:49

while Clover is busy haggling and Reynald gets distracted by said haggling going, a little bit unplanned, Maggie gets interrupted by Goldeneyes from the garden while she's watching, a play about King Sauven and Ralinbor of the Wilds, their whole, their fight that happened 25 years ago. It's the 25th anniversary celebration, and so this, that's what's happening in that little puppet play. Sage has notes or thoughts

Sage Moreaux 5:21

I do, so many. I just wanna throw one thing out there. Maggie, we learned, is 26 years old, and this is the 25th anniversary of this event between the king and his brother, half-brother, that keeps being

Zinzi Brookbree 5:34

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 5:35

a lot, and I just feel like there's a lot there that is gonna be important later, and I have no idea how. But it did make me wonder, I have a whole theory about Maggie that I will talk about later, and the age is an important element of it. end

Katherine Suzette 5:47

drawn that, like, line yet, and oh, I love you Sage.

Zinzi Brookbree 5:53

Interesting thoughts

Sage Moreaux 5:54

Just touch on with this marketplace before we get into this golden-eyed man who maybe is Arvel now is my new theory because of the gol- 'cause originally it said, like, golden hazel eyes, but the golden aspect has been being played up a lot,

Zinzi Brookbree 6:07

Hmm

Sage Moreaux 6:07

that, his, Arvel's magic is, like... I forget what it's called, but it creates, like, a golden... He, like, radiates gold. So that was, like, maybe that was, maybe that was a theory, a new theory.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:19

Mooncake

Sage Moreaux 6:20

thinking about, how Clover is so, savvy in the market and just she's what? 17, and Maggie is this 26-year-old who's basically like a child. Like, obviously she's in a

Zinzi Brookbree 6:29

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 6:30

but it was striking me of, how you had to adult at a younger age in this kind of

Zinzi Brookbree 6:35

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 6:36

world than you do in, as a, you know, DoorDasher in America. That's basically Maggie's adult existence.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:44

Yep.

Sage Moreaux 6:44

Different kind

Zinzi Brookbree 6:45

100%.

Sage Moreaux 6:46

say

Zinzi Brookbree 6:46

that was part of her training as a lady's maid was being able to, recognize even, you know, what is the worth of said mushrooms or things that are meant for the household, so she knows she's not getting swindled, right? So she can haggle. She takes pride in it. she does it well, or at least seems to in this scenario. I am... Haggling is not my thing, so I, I would be so grateful for a Clover in my life to just handle that and take care of those details,

Sage Moreaux 7:13

Makes me glad that, we just have sticker tags of prices on products for the most part, except that they generally are pretty expensive these days. But in general, I also don't like haggling, so I'm grateful for just like, "Oh, that's what it costs, I'll pay it."

Zinzi Brookbree 7:29

Yeah, the, the idea of going to a country where I would have to haggle just for basic groceries, like I, I don't know that I'd be able to leave the, the house. It'd be terrifying for me every time, or I'd be taken advantage of every time, 'cause, the straight up panic of like I don't, I don't know how much is a pomegranate. How much would a pomegranate cost in a place that grows pomegranates versus how much a pomegranate costs here, right, where it's imported and then is gonna, you know, hike up the cost. That's a random tangent

Sage Moreaux 7:58

knowing what the money is worth and like doing the calculations and all of that.

Zinzi Brookbree 8:02

Mm, mm-hmm. I wanna go back and comment real quick, Sage. I am calling him Golden Eyes from the Garden. I do recognize his eyes are hazel, like they are listed as hazel with sometimes a kind of golden glow. I'm just playing it up for the alliteration, 'cause it makes it easier to remember the name of a character that I know who it is, but I cannot say who it is.

Sage Moreaux 8:23

Cool, cool. But I had already thought that before you said golden eyes. It started making me be like, 'cause I have got, now that I'm reading on the Kindle, I've been going back and, like, finding, 'cause one of the big things I've noticed is that a lot of characters are described, but Maggie doesn't know who they are, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 8:39

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 8:39

she doesn't know, we'll get to it, but the, the serial killer character, she knows what he looks like, but she doesn't know who he is. There's a lot of characters where there's, like, an unknown, and then even, Reynold looks different than she expected. There's this kind of where maybe that's gonna be important, and maybe it's not, I don't know. I've been going back and rereading, descriptions of what characters look like to try and figure out who some of these mysterious, mysterious people are. So far, more theories than actual knowledge.

Zinzi Brookbree 9:13

we're about halfway through the book here at this, with this section, Heart of a Knight. so hopefully we've made it up to the top of the hill, and after this next section it'll all be, downhill from here in the, this is a fun, sledding metaphor and not a downhill, "Oh, no, the book sucks after this," right? It's, it's downhill 'cause it's fun.

Sage Moreaux 9:37

Fingers

Zinzi Brookbree 9:37

Lola,

Katherine Suzette 9:38

It does feel like the authors have, like, laid out the puzzle pieces. You know, like the first step is to, like, flip them all over, and then, like, start kind of grouping them into kinda where you think they might be. It feels like from here on out we're gonna get some pieces that are gonna drop into place, which is the right thing for this stage of the book. the authors have done a really excellent job of planting enough seeds that gonna be a lot that's exposed, but we also know that there are multiple books. So I think that some of these things that start to get put together are going to expose some bigger plans as well, that we, we won't fully by the end of the book

Sage Moreaux 10:17

I am both very much looking forward to and also terrified of the, like, prediction rundown that we're gonna do where we see how actually right or wrong we were because I'm, like, lightweight embarrassed by probably how wrong I've been on many of these things and, but that's okay, I'm still throwing them out there. I have, like, so many conflicting theories. I figure if I come at it from every angle, then maybe I'll get one right.

Katherine Suzette 10:45

I have so many about Reynald that are all, conflicting. Like, only one of those could be true, and probably none of them are, which is part of the fun of it.

Zinzi Brookbree 10:52

What did you guys think, so particularly going back to the moment of, Goldeneyes coming and interrupting Maggie, while in the market in that he admits to having a couple of guards distract Clover and Reynald away, and then when Reynald comes back, he, Goldeneyes makes a comment, "Do I know you?" And, like, there's a little interaction between the two of them where they're trying to suss each other out. what did you guys think of that?

Sage Moreaux 11:18

Just loving all the male energy, I think in general. I think, I've been really enjoying Reynold, although my current prediction is that? he is not Maggie's, like, end romance, but we'll see.

Zinzi Brookbree 11:31

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 11:32

there's been A lot of build-up with him, and I was even going back to, like, chapter 16 and 17, and he was being very, very dynamic and, there was lots of scenes of him giving her, the intense green eyes and then doing, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 11:44

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 11:46

kinda tough guy in the corner. And even though he's like this very protective, safe-feeling character, he's also being portrayed as, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 11:53

A demon from the basement. Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 11:55

Yeah, so I'm, like, feeling that one a lot more than I had originally been. Like, I was originally like, "He's fine," but now I'm very much So this little standoff between the two men

Zinzi Brookbree 12:05

being swayed.

Sage Moreaux 12:06

that quite a lot. I was like, "Oh, this is fun." And she makes I mean, Maggie comments on that, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 12:12

Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 12:13

she made some comment about it. What about you, Katherine?

Katherine Suzette 12:15

mean, he definitely feels like the dangling carrot to distract us from other things, and, like, what his ultimate goals are. I don't know if he knows what decisions he's gonna make from here on out. I don't know if he, he in a protective way, if he betrays Maggie, or, you know, if she chooses him but he doesn't choose... I don't know what this looks like

Zinzi Brookbree 12:36

Ja.

Katherine Suzette 12:36

yet, but I also agree, I don't think he's end goal. I think that he's teaser

Sage Moreaux 12:42

It's also really sad that he might get his heart broken, like if he gets really into her and then she decides nah. but we'll see.

Katherine Suzette 12:51

I mean, he could be end goal. These authors do tend to, not tease as much with the character pairings. So it could be that, something happens that makes me believe that they're going to be end goal again. But right now, I don't think that they are. I think that he's teaser. He's, he's fluffing us up, fluffing the audience up. kind of think Everard is the obvious man in place for, for Maggie to fall in love with eventually.

Sage Moreaux 13:22

That's what I think too.

Katherine Suzette 13:23

I mean,

Sage Moreaux 13:23

Well, I-

Katherine Suzette 13:24

Solentine's gonna tease us as well.

Sage Moreaux 13:26

she does say though that she would never, but she does say she would never go with Solantane even though she loves him so much. She's been in his head and knows, like, how fucked up he is in the head, and that she could

Zinzi Brookbree 13:35

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 13:35

go with that. I mean, you know, people do make bad choices all the time, but she does say that early on. I also was thinking a lot about how a good writer usually introduces, current writing style. You, introduce all those key pieces really early in the book, and usually, but not always, a main love interest is introduced in the book. Now, it could be that the main love interest isn't introduced until book two, for example, if there's like a distraction in book one. But Everard was introduced at the beginning, even before we met Reynold, so there was that piece.

Zinzi Brookbree 14:13

and Maggie has a lucky coin from the interaction with Everard, right, that she's hanging on to. going back to this moment in the market, and Goldeneyes directs Maggie to the pavilions to go take a look. Do you think he was in the know about that, or did he just hear rumors in the market and decided, "Hmm, let's go see what, what's happening there."

Sage Moreaux 14:34

I mean, he could have walked over, and seen it

Katherine Suzette 14:38

I don't know. I almost wonder if Raynar- Reynold is the murderer.

Zinzi Brookbree 14:41

If Reynald is the murderer

Sage Moreaux 14:43

about that.

Zinzi Brookbree 14:44

as a theory

Katherine Suzette 14:45

it's suspicious enough that it definitely piqued my interest. But Goldeneyes himself, I kind of think he could be the murderer and teasing Maggie. He could also be the author just wandering around taking note of all the things happening and, like, how things are sped up.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:00

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 15:01

I don't know yet

Zinzi Brookbree 15:02

right

Sage Moreaux 15:03

I felt like he was not the murderer because it felt too obvious, but he could be. He could be in the know. I just wanna call out, we, uh, since you asked, I just found this on my page about the butcher, and Reynold said, "Could it be that man from the garden?" And Maggie says, "No, the butcher is older and dark-haired. The man from the garden has blonde eyebrows." So he is not the butcher himself, but that's not to say he couldn't be involved in some way.

Zinzi Brookbree 15:33

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 15:33

Just wanted to clarify that

Katherine Suzette 15:35

that other characters don't have, for sure

Zinzi Brookbree 15:38

That I can agree with

Sage Moreaux 15:40

I kinda feel like he already knows Maggie. So I have this big theory that-- Can I just throw it out there right now, or am I

Zinzi Brookbree 15:46

You can go ahead and throw it out here.

Sage Moreaux 15:47

I have this big theory that I can't quite wrap my head around how it would work, but I just keep thinking about the portaling, right? Being isekaied into this world, and I'm like, "How does-- What's that about?" And so my theory, which I can go into more detail later, but basically is that Maggie is actually from this world, which is why my 20, 26 years thing, right? So d- was she taken away as a one-year-old baby? But then it would m- not make sense that this man knows her. D- is she actually having amnesia? So now I'm like, maybe she, is actually from Kair Toren, and that's why she can speak the language, and she can understand the writing and all these things, and she just doesn't remember her previous life as a, I don't know, mysterious daughter of the king. Like, who would she be? Somebody that this golden-eyed man knows, and he's, like, trying to get her to talk about what she's doing, and I don't know. Some- something in that vein is my big theory that I don't know is right, but I'm liking thinking about it a lot.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:47

It's a fun theory

Katherine Suzette 16:48

Well, and her brain does keep giving her the, the relevant information, but I don't know, 'cause that would mean that she would have to have been either embedded with a whole new life in our reality, or she had to have been reborn into the other world to live a, a lifespan there as well. but I

Sage Moreaux 17:07

Exactly

Katherine Suzette 17:08

was a, like when you were talking about It earlier, I was like, Oh yeah, that thread makes sense that she was a baby in this world, and then she ended up in the other world." like her father is the author or something like that

Sage Moreaux 17:18

It also doesn't quite make sense of like, so if the author was from Kair Toren and all this stuff happened and he wrote the books about it, but clearly he didn't know what was gonna happen in book three and that's why he didn't write it. then Maggie comes into this world at the beginning of the story, so like how all of that mysterious magic works, I don't know. Brain is exploding over here as I've been thinking about it. I, I

Zinzi Brookbree 17:43

Just all the options, and you want all the answers, and you can't have them yet 'cause I'm not letting you read ahead.

Sage Moreaux 17:48

Cause Zinzi is so mean.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:52

I'm torturing you with my favorite book

Katherine Suzette 17:55

If anybody wants to torture me in the future, don't let me read ahead.

Sage Moreaux 17:58

can

Zinzi Brookbree 17:58

Successful.

Sage Moreaux 17:59

murder though? I had a

Zinzi Brookbree 18:01

Yes, please.

Sage Moreaux 18:02

about the murder. So she talks about, I'm not gonna quote it directly, but Maggie, they see this guy strung up and like his guts all hanging out and everything,

Zinzi Brookbree 18:11

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 18:12

is talking about how in Kair Toren people aren't used to serial killers, right? But I feel like this is a really violent society where there's mercenaries and there's all this like warfare happening and that's like an, like being a mercenary is a regular job, and being one of these night defenders is a regular job. And there was that guy that Hreban had, had his hands cut off and

Zinzi Brookbree 18:37

Yep

Sage Moreaux 18:37

in the still, maybe not still alive, but had been alive, like tortured. I was kind of surprised by the concept that the authors introduced here that this was like a shock and outside the ordinary, and I just kind of wondered what you two thought about that. To me, it felt like slightly like a discrepancy

Katherine Suzette 18:56

what she did was then when they got the murder board out and things like that, and she explained it to everybody else, she explained it through the lens of her education in the criminal justice system.

Sage Moreaux 19:06

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 19:07

m- it might be that they just don't have a label or a concept for the psychological aspect of the serial killer. They're used to death and violence, clearly, but there's usually a reason, that's not necessarily psychological. and in this case, she introduces the serial killer as, like, needing to prove something or be on top. there's something about the exposure of their innards and stuff like that. She, she explains it through a very, like, educated lens, and I feel like that was the part that I took as what They don't have in Kair Toren, but just me. Zinzi, what did you think?

Zinzi Brookbree 19:40

I think part of it is, even as you pointed out, Katherine, It's a different kind of violence, right? when you're a mercenary or you're a knight, and violence is being enacted, it's usually for a cause. It's got a reason that goes back to an order, right? Somebody is giving that order, someone is, is giving reason to this death, to an execution, to... I mean, even the Hreban thing, right? Like, people could walk past that, and there's a sign that says, "I stole from Hreban." You know what the cause is. You know you don't do it, then it won't happen to you, right? Versus this serial killer scenario, this first murder that is on display, we have the insider track knowledge that Maggie has about that it is a serial killer, that there's gonna be a series of these, it's gonna happen every week, right? For people who don't have that knowledge, and they're just seeing this very gruesome murder of a talented knight up on display, that would, you know, that would be scary to anybody because you don't know, we- at this point, they don't know that this serial killer targets knights. It could just be anybody, and it's a gruesome display, it feels awful to talk about it this way, but like, there's a level of artistry and pageantry that is going into this display as well that is on a different level from what Hreban did with the thief at the opening of the book

Sage Moreaux 21:09

I suppose also in Maggie's mind she's read what's happening now and a whole nother book forward, so like months out where things devolve, not even at a serial level. But like if right now the king is a little crazy and unpredictable, but there's not a lot of like madness creating death in the streets so much, right? So

Zinzi Brookbree 21:34

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 21:34

maybe when Herbron takes over it becomes more brutal, and I'm

Zinzi Brookbree 21:39

Oh, absolutely

Sage Moreaux 21:40

right? And I'm also of course like a little bit of my brain is like Game of Thrones level of like torture

Zinzi Brookbree 21:45

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 21:45

I'm kind of equating the two, fantasy

Zinzi Brookbree 21:49

even if that happened in this book, the characters that Maggie has talked about who would perpetrate that, they're not doing it out in the open. They're still, a lot of them are still putting on the fronts of being honorable knights, being honorable, lords or earls or, you know, they're, they still want to control the people and their perception

Sage Moreaux 22:12

it surprised me 'cause I was like, oh yeah, it's a brutal, bloody thing of, like, cutting somebody up because you don't have a gun, you just have a s-

Zinzi Brookbree 22:19

Mm-hmm. it's also not a, this guy got mobbed in a back alley and it looks like a bunch of people attacked him, right? Like, it's artfully displayed to cause fear and shock and awe in the worst way. Yeah, without, without a why, and that's what makes it different than what people would normally see. What did you guys think of, so Maggie in explaining, what the whole serial killer does and does this whole outline of like what's gonna happen in the future, this whole timeline, right? Like she's laying out this thing happens, and this thing is awful, and this assassination happens, and this is how Hreban comes to power, and the worst thing at the end is Matteo's gonna die, Matteo is gonna die, right, defending, Collort Jennicar, Jenn- I hate his name. His, I cannot remember it for the life of me. The Sun Margrave, who will f- I will not use his real name probably ever again. Collert Gen- Collart Jennicor? Maybe that's what it is. Uh, the Sun Margrave, right? Yeah. So, like he gets murdered, the crown prince get murdered, Hreban comes to power, and then, "Oh, by the way, I'm still holding something back, and that information is your son is gonna die. Oops. Sorry, I didn't tell you sooner."

Sage Moreaux 23:49

Yeah. That was fucked up, but she knew it.

Zinzi Brookbree 23:53

I,

Sage Moreaux 23:53

she

Zinzi Brookbree 23:54

yeah

Sage Moreaux 23:54

the whole time she was like, "Ugh." She was really waiting to share this piece of information and hoping maybe that she wouldn't have to, I guess. Like, maybe they'd f- she thought she had months to go, and she might be able to

Zinzi Brookbree 24:06

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 24:06

to, like, change things in the meantime, and she would never have to say that.

Zinzi Brookbree 24:10

she was supposed to have more than four months before this, serial killer part of the story that she's aware of happens, And it goes into the timeline has reasserted itself, the story plots. What did you guys think about that? We're like, she made changes, and now it's speeding everything up, and what was supposed to happen is kind of forcing itself to still happen according to the books

Katherine Suzette 24:41

Felt like a natural consequence.

Sage Moreaux 24:44

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 24:45

I've read other isekai stories, and that's kinda what would happen. I mean, there would be something, either the plot would change so that a different person was carrying out the same thing, or the timeline would speed up, or something like that. I feel like that was expected

Sage Moreaux 25:02

It reminded me of like timeline type stories with like alternate world timelines where the, like the timeline will readjust itself, so you'll go off into this alternate timeline, but then it'll collapse back to the main one because things are meant to happen for a reason, which does not bode well actually for poor Mateo or whatever. Ma- Matteo? How do you pronounce his name?

Zinzi Brookbree 25:24

Teo?

Sage Moreaux 25:25

It doesn't bode well for Reynold's son because if things are like gonna collapse back, hopefully Maggie will be able to make some level of changes, but if not, there's a bunch of characters that she loves that are bound for suffering. I mean, Reynold dies, right? Like she talks

Zinzi Brookbree 25:39

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 25:40

we know that is supposed to happen too, so Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 25:45

Make- makes us worried

Sage Moreaux 25:46

was that it reminded me of, I thought it was a cute little like shout-out to authors because, from the authors, because

Zinzi Brookbree 25:54

Yes

Sage Moreaux 25:54

always just makes me think of like a plot planning board when you're trying to come up with, you know, like figure out all the plot details of your story that you're writing, and I have multiple ones for different books I'm working on on my wall behind me, and I just like, it's one of my favorite things. It's like this visual representation of all how all

Zinzi Brookbree 26:10

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 26:10

are gonna go down, and here she is doing it, basically plotting a book she's read out for her audience

Zinzi Brookbree 26:18

Yeah. Well, and also she's been, this is something that I am really looking forward to learning more about, is Maggie's knowledge of the books, right? She's able to write out with a photographic memory that she previously did not have, what took place in, the two original books that she read. Also, we know that she can speak Rellsian, and I'm loving every time she says a word, right, like there's train and ferry that she both says in this section, where they're like, "Huh? What is that? What did you just say?" And she's like, "Oh, there isn't a Rellsian equivalent, I must have said the English word." So we even know, like she might be feeling like she's speaking in English, but what is actually being heard or said or received is in Rellsian. she can write Rellsian, she can write the, cipher for the shears, and, like, that level of knowledge is another kind of superpower that I'm just... I find so fun and continue to enjoy the authors exploring

Sage Moreaux 27:22

Yeah, I loved that when she was, like said train, and I was like, "Oh, yeah." And, she's often thinking anachronisms and like, "This was awesome being in the market," and all this, but she's thinking it. She's not ever saying awesome out loud. although she maybe has said some swears, but maybe they all do. I don't know. That is like,

Zinzi Brookbree 27:40

We all have.

Sage Moreaux 27:41

they all, they all use the F word, yeah. Um, I really loved that though. That was a nice detail to include

Zinzi Brookbree 27:48

And it makes me feel better about the times that, like, a euphemism, Americanism, whatever, something gets used and is... If it gets ignored, then my brain goes, "Oh, there's, an equivalent in Rellasian that got translated." But if it's pointed out, then it's like, "Oh, that's a fun fact. Okay, now I know fairies aren't in this world, or aren't in this mythology, or the equivalent of it, or trains, right?" Like, there isn't- they haven't figured that technology out somewhere else in the world. So that even is a little world-building that I'm enjoying learning about

Sage Moreaux 28:22

Yeah, I was really enjoying the market for that in general as like a little extra, 'cause they've been

Zinzi Brookbree 28:26

Mm.

Sage Moreaux 28:27

But being out at the market was a fun, a fun little extra world building that I was excited by

Zinzi Brookbree 28:32

I'm gonna fast-forward just a little bit here and go, point to Katherine and point to Sage for you guys realizing that it was the stelka leaving the fish. Congrats to you both. Good job. but in the market there's, like, this Pomeranian-fox mix, and I'm like, "I want that. I want whatever creature that is." The stelka's cool too, though

Sage Moreaux 28:53

Silke isn't, Silke a little fox-like also? That's what I was

Zinzi Brookbree 28:57

The, they're described as being more ottery, like an otter,

Sage Moreaux 29:03

that too.

Zinzi Brookbree 29:04

but red. Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 29:05

I don't

Zinzi Brookbree 29:05

The art is cute

Sage Moreaux 29:08

I don't necessarily need something bringing me fish. I want,

Zinzi Brookbree 29:11

yeah, maybe not the first.

Sage Moreaux 29:12

go back to this point when we were talking about, like, the timeline moving up

Zinzi Brookbree 29:16

Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 29:17

I really loved that Reynold and the others then stepped up and they were like, "It's okay, we've got this. We're gonna figure it out. Like, this sucks, but now that we know, we can change it, and I've, like, taken down cities in four months or castles or whatever, and,

Zinzi Brookbree 29:33

Yes.

Sage Moreaux 29:35

And I

Zinzi Brookbree 29:35

I've taken castles in five weeks is what Reynald says

Sage Moreaux 29:39

Yes, and I was just loving the kind of, like, badass con- confidence that he

Zinzi Brookbree 29:44

Mm, mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 29:45

of backed him up on, and yeah, that

Zinzi Brookbree 29:47

Like, okay.

Katherine Suzette 29:48

I wanna talk about, like, Maggie's first try to figure out was leaving the fish, and that was Kaiden. Cause I think this was my favorite moment, was her Kaiden stealing from

Zinzi Brookbree 30:03

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 30:03

and then finding his stash of everybody's objects, and, like, the conversation and the challenge that she gave to Kaiden

Zinzi Brookbree 30:10

Yeah, that she even has a thought, like she can't make him go cold turkey and not steal things, and he needs to be able to... He lost his parents, he lost every, everything in the house 'cause it was burned because of, the government's fear of plague, right? They didn't want plague to spread, so they burned everything in his home. So he doesn't have trinkets or mementos or anything from his parents. and so for this newfound family, that he's taking an object from each of them and holding onto it, 'cause he's scared he's gonna, he's gonna lose the safety that he's found now and the people that he's caring about, is just a really- It's a really sweet interaction between Maggie and Kaiden for sure. And then also the, the follow-up step of Maggie, going to the scribes, tracking down what happened to Kaigen's parents' ashes, and then, locating where the traditional family burial place would be, which is a tree, and has, you know, brings more, brings literal meaning to a family tree, right? It's got five generations of his family, now on the tree, and I just, I love the little details, even of the, the two signs that she had made for the parents where his dad has a little lock hanging off of it, and his mom's had, like, a little flower put on. Even though we don't get their names, we get so many other random character names, but we don't get Kaigen's parents' names here. we still don't know...

Katherine Suzette 31:42

for right now

Zinzi Brookbree 31:44

It's like it is, but I'm also sitting here going, like, we don't, we don't get that detail. We don't have, Maggie's family members' names. There's still a lot of names that are being withheld, but there's been so many, like, it doesn't... And, and his parents are dead. It's not like there's gonna be more story that happens with them, so why not just give us the names? as opposed to, you know, getting, we got in the history of, Rallanbor we got, his wife's name during that whole conversation, and the son's name. we've had other characters where we've gotten names, and, they don't necessarily happen to appear in the rest of the book. So why, why... I wanna know the names. What's two more names in all the, in this giant list of names from this book that we're already going through?

Katherine Suzette 32:35

I think it's a matter of importance. What's important for us to remember is the impression on Kaiden and the fact that he would call them Mom and Dad as

Zinzi Brookbree 32:43

Mm.

Katherine Suzette 32:43

to, like with these other people, we have their name, but it's to a large degree gonna go in one ear and out the other unless we have an impression to associate with them. So in this one, the impression, that feeling, the sentiment was what was important for us to walk away with. It wasn't their name. And even with the other people where they have random names, names mentioned, it's because their name takes the place of having to build some kind of sentiment or impression of that character 'cause We don't need that other information. and we, like you said, we have so many names. Why don't we associate some, some feelings, some memories, some important moments, especially since their name isn't important to remember, at least at this time. They're Mom and

Sage Moreaux 33:25

I think this book does a good job of walking the line of epic fantasy. Like, it's not a 700-page book. even though there's so much detail that Maggie talks about of things that have happened in the past and things that are going to happen from her knowledge of the books, there is not so much heavy-duty world-building like there are in some kind of epic fantasy tomes. Whereas, I mean, The Lord of the Rings, which I love, like, there's mountain names being thrown out all over the place that, like, don't matter at all in the grand scheme of things, but it's, like, long descriptions of all this stuff.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:01

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 34:02

I agree with Katherine, like, what's important is that feeling and the fact that Maggie is taking this emotional responsibility for this child, and

Zinzi Brookbree 34:11

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 34:11

really nice job. He's 12 years old, right? That's pretty young, and especially for all this trauma. and she is all of a sudden kind of like a mom, or, you know, maybe Shayna takes some of it on. But, she is this now savior for this kid and is taking over care of him, and she's kind of realizing what that

Zinzi Brookbree 34:32

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 34:32

And I think the family tree cemetery with the ashes, feeding the tree, that was my favorite bit of world-building so far. I thought that was a really cool element that's very different

Zinzi Brookbree 34:43

wish

Sage Moreaux 34:43

before.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:44

in the world-building of that, Maggie lists out, depending on where you're from, it's different things. The people who live in the city, they've done this family tree, but they also mention people from the North, like Reynald they do cairns, I think, or, I forget what they're called, but like they do, they do a burial, and then other people will put their dead out to sea and sink their ships, right? Like, there's a variety of, honoring the deads with different traditions, and that's good world-building. I just, I like that it's not a monolith of this is what we do and this is what everybody does

Sage Moreaux 35:23

Hmm. I agree

Zinzi Brookbree 35:24

I would like to backtrack a bit, and we have, two different visits that happen in this section of chapters, right? We have, Drugh who comes to get revenge kind of for Filderon, right? he shows up and goes, "I wanna meet with the Magnars. my wife is hurting, and I need to make somebody pay." And Maggie does try to do her whole talking spiel of let me convince you that I'm in the right, and the person you're trying to defend was scum of the earth. And he's like, "Yeah, I know all that. And so? Why, why should I care? I still... My wife is still hurting. I still need my pound of flesh to meal, make her feel better." until he sees Reynald's face, right? Like, he's about to go and attack Maggie after she puts that, "Well, you're gonna have to do away with me here now," and then he sees, Reynald and, that sends him running. What did you guys think of that interaction?

Katherine Suzette 36:23

I mean, I loved Reynald a little bit in that moment. Definitely had some feelings

Sage Moreaux 36:28

Same. I loved how that was like all he had to do was show his face and the other guy kind of hightailed it out of there, and then Reynald was like, "We should finish drinking our tea. It's really expensive." It's like, oh.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:38

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 36:39

So calm and cool.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:41

Well, and he's also like, "That was your plan? Just talk with him and, and rely on me, and that was it, right?" That's, that's what I got

Katherine Suzette 36:49

And she was like, "I was really hoping that would work,"

Sage Moreaux 36:51

and I mean that w- you know, he, that guy wanted to make his wife feel better. that's big, you know?

Katherine Suzette 36:55

I got the impression that she knew that this was a definite possibility, and like, that that really was her only plan. I kind of appreciated that 'cause I related to it. like my plan really was to just play the same card I've been playing all along and tell him a lot about himself in hopes that he walks away from it.

Zinzi Brookbree 37:16

I also appreciate writing-wise that, you know, here's somebody who she does that trick on, and it doesn't work, right? 'Cause you need that. She- you can't have her do this story exposition, to everybody and that turn, that would turn her into a Mary Sue, where everyone's fawning over themselves to just, "Oh, you're right. You convinced me. Okay," blah, blah, blah. versus we have another interaction that she does the whole lay out the history, but with a much more, emotion and context when Earl Beringer comes, right, with his bodyguard and speaks with Maggie because he's looking for his brother, Pelegrin. What did you guys take away from that interaction?

Katherine Suzette 37:57

I really appreciated it, and I appreciated that she sussed out, the, the Lord beforehand to know if she was even gonna give him the details

Zinzi Brookbree 38:06

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 38:07

the other guy or at least do her best to protect the other guy. I liked how she presented his situation,

Sage Moreaux 38:13

I really am liking Maggie's emotional intelligence. She's bringing, like, a modern world emotional intelligence into this world where you have kind of like more brutal way of life. And the

Zinzi Brookbree 38:27

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 38:27

she was able to talk about, the potential that somebody couldn't really come to terms with the kind of violence, and it, how she laid it all out of, like, you kind of set him up for that by glorifying our

Zinzi Brookbree 38:42

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 38:42

and then, your father, and then how he, thought that it was gonna be this glorious thing, and it was really this horrible situation that he had to suffer through and deal with and, step up and just do those awful things, and then that you can't just necessarily compartmentalize that. I really appreciated that she put a name to 'Cause And, and she's always talking about how her father, Maggie's father, was, a soldier. And so, like, I think there's a recognition that is really nice anybody who does have family or is been in a situation where you are someone who has to follow orders and do something that doesn't necessarily sit really well with you, and how that

Zinzi Brookbree 39:21

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 39:22

can be really difficult. So I loved And I think one of, was it Reynold said something about how they app- like, hearing her put It in that terms made them feel really good also. Yeah, it was like a nice moment of this recognition of how hard this scenario is

Katherine Suzette 39:39

I also appreciate the fact that we have essentially been told, like very clearly, as far as I'm concerned, that this calling card is gonna come in handy, this favor

Sage Moreaux 39:50

Mm.

Katherine Suzette 39:50

this lord.

Zinzi Brookbree 39:51

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 39:51

you know, any- anything you need, m- me and mine are at your service essentially is what I felt like he communicated. I feel pretty strongly that that is going to come up either in the climactic time of this book or by midpoint of book two, it's gonna be important that, this guy contributed his services to the protection or the whims or whatever of Maggie and company.

Sage Moreaux 40:15

She's also building herself up as a spy mistress, which she was

Zinzi Brookbree 40:19

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 40:20

up front, but like I think he found out from Solantene's organization, right? The

Zinzi Brookbree 40:26

what she takes away from here is, Shod who works at the Three Moons and does therefore technically work for Solentine is selling information on the side. And not just selling information on the side, but, like, to the highest bidder, to whoever's gonna pay. So Shod is now in effect betraying Solantyne to a certain degree by letting that information get out if it's not something Solentine wants known. and Maggie makes a note- a personal note of it, and it was like, "Hmm, I, I- it will be fun to sell this back to Solentine at the right moment." So for this particular episode, I picked out a couple different key moments, one of them being the whole murder board thing, one of them being this, part of this moment that we're talking about now, the role of a knight and the, honor that they're supposed to project, and yet the violence that shores that up as part of, right, like they spend their entire lives training to kill people, and yet is perceived in some ways as protection or honorable, particularly depending on which, set of the knights you're part of, right? we learn in this section also about Arval, and Reynald asks, what happens to him in Maggie's knowledge, when the prince gets assassinated, he is part of the security detail and gets blamed for the death. And so he retreats. He's he can't handle not being loved and not being the golden child in in the capital. so he retreats, and, his honor then becomes tarnished as he, continues to make steps where he ends up turning away from the, Severic line as the rulers according to what Maggie says about what he'll do in the future. it's compared with what Everard's choices are gonna be, and Everard also leaves the capital and goes back to, the dukedom, And it's just, it's interesting, they both choose to defend the borders when the Crimson Empire attacks. And just, you can be honorable but still have very different motivations behind your actions

Sage Moreaux 42:50

I had highlighted that too because of exactly what you said, like, Arvel is this golden, I mean, his magic is golden. He's the golden one. I, again, am, have always been more of the, like, reluctant hero or shadow daddy fan, where they're a little more, like, doing the right thing but not always appreciated for it, or because of your, like, way of presenting yourself as kind of, you know. 'Cause, 'cause so Reynald says that Everard was born to protect a dukedom, and then, like he puts that first, he's acting out of pure self-interest. And I was like, well,

Zinzi Brookbree 43:24

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 43:24

if he goes to protect it, is that really acting out of self-interest, or that's doing what you were raised to do? And like, it's, like Reynald

Zinzi Brookbree 43:32

Yep

Sage Moreaux 43:32

negative opinion of that also, and I was like, wow, even so, you know. I mean, it doesn't seem like Reynald has a very great opinion of Arvel either.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:40

Renault

Sage Moreaux 43:41

golden boy

Zinzi Brookbree 43:42

few good opinions of anyone in power

Sage Moreaux 43:47

Okay, good point. And like fair, that's fair.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:49

Has anything to do with, you know, his, his place in life and the fact that his wife got murdered and his son got kidnapped, and, the people in power are the reason why. Maybe

Sage Moreaux 43:59

And he's been very, like, upstanding of a knight and, like, following all those,

Zinzi Brookbree 44:05

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 44:06

I

Zinzi Brookbree 44:06

all the rules and still getting screwed

Sage Moreaux 44:08

Yeah. don't think they've fully laid out, like, what it means to be a knight exactly, but we get the gist of it, right? and he's been there. He's been, like, a solid knight upstanding in his

Zinzi Brookbree 44:18

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 44:19

And yet I cannot wait to meet some of these people in power. I'm so excited for it. I don't know what that says about me

Zinzi Brookbree 44:27

then the, final key moment that I had highlighted in the notes is the almost kiss in the cemetery. Weird place for a potentially a kiss, but, a, a real close call romantic moment for Maggie and Reynald Do you wish they'd kissed? Should they have kissed?

Katherine Suzette 44:46

I think it was the right choice

Sage Moreaux 44:47

felt like it was an interesting one, right, because she takes her hand out of his. like, you can tell he's all in in this moment, right? So that was,

Zinzi Brookbree 44:54

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 44:54

was sexy. and but then she also by not go- and I don't know how I feel about this, but, like, just because of who Reynold is, by her removing her hand, he's like, "Okay, well then I'm not gonna try again." Like, it's on your terms, which I like that,

Zinzi Brookbree 45:11

Hmm. Green flag.

Sage Moreaux 45:13

a little deflated by it. It's a green flag for

Zinzi Brookbree 45:16

Hmm

Sage Moreaux 45:16

then not that I want him to like... But like, okay, I mean, they are in the cemetery. They're ha- it's a kind of

Zinzi Brookbree 45:21

Hey

Sage Moreaux 45:22

moment. They have this whole thing

Zinzi Brookbree 45:24

But, but Sage,

Sage Moreaux 45:25

into

Zinzi Brookbree 45:26

you've learned enough of his personality. Do you think that this is actually a, retreat, okay, it's in your hands, or do you think that's a I'm gonna bide my time, I recognize that this isn't the moment?

Sage Moreaux 45:37

Hmm. I think I

Katherine Suzette 45:38

a bide

Sage Moreaux 45:38

just love

Katherine Suzette 45:39

personally, because he also, he was like communicating that he was all in with his expression, I feel like that moment was in her control. Maybe not, maybe not the next move, but like that moment

Sage Moreaux 45:51

kind of felt like what were they actually gonna kiss in that moment? Or like, I don't know, but they didn't. I, I still like think a little annoyed because he literally found out that his wife died like three weeks ago, and that hasn't been addressed to my satisfaction. So even though I'm like really enjoying him, I, there, that is like a little

Zinzi Brookbree 46:14

Real stuck on that point. Yeah

Sage Moreaux 46:17

really, that it just like, you know, if he, if six months ago he would've had time to process, is she the rebound? Like, I mean, he doesn't seem like a rebound guy, so maybe not, but I don't

Zinzi Brookbree 46:28

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 46:29

I am stuck on that point a little bit. It, it, it downplays my desire for that kiss to have,

Zinzi Brookbree 46:35

Yeah,

Sage Moreaux 46:36

happened.

Zinzi Brookbree 46:36

so, devoted to rescuing his son. No, no comment on, uh, his dead wife and how that's impacted him

Sage Moreaux 46:46

100%. Yes, yes,

Zinzi Brookbree 46:48

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 46:49

As a

Zinzi Brookbree 46:50

Mm.

Sage Moreaux 46:51

I would like to

Zinzi Brookbree 46:52

Likewise.

Sage Moreaux 46:53

maybe,

Zinzi Brookbree 46:54

I mattered?

Sage Moreaux 46:56

like a comment about how they weren't close or there's an arrange- I don't know, like something.

Zinzi Brookbree 47:01

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 47:02

that comes later. Hard to know. Well, Zinzi knows,

Zinzi Brookbree 47:04

Okay. Yes, I do.

Sage Moreaux 47:06

we'll get there I mean, I wouldn't have minded a kiss just for, like, the excitement of it. 'cause I

Zinzi Brookbree 47:11

Do you

Sage Moreaux 47:11

really good. I think he's probably a really good kisser is what I think

Zinzi Brookbree 47:16

I, I, I can't, I can't comment, audience. I can't.

Sage Moreaux 47:23

Not

Zinzi Brookbree 47:23

My brain stuttered.

Katherine Suzette 47:24

Yeah.

Zinzi Brookbree 47:25

Anyway, I was just gonna say, running through the logic of her going, "This is why I can't have a relationship," because she wants it. She, she's, she says the line, "I would give anything to kiss Reynald Karis right now." but then she goes through all of the emotional of "But I'm not really from here," and this, I wanna take us into only being a character, right? Like, if you find out your life, every trial you have suffered, every difficulty you have gone through was because someone else was like, "Ha, this is gonna be entertaining. How can I make you hurt more so my readers can enjoy it?" Right? Like, the emotional impact we're writers. we create worlds, we create characters, we torture them, we kill them, we make them fall in love, we make them break up. that's, that's the reality of what we do, and do you ever have that, what if somewhere in the universe this thing that I'm writing is real, and these poor people are, I am God to them

Sage Moreaux 48:27

That's awful. Now You just, I'm

Zinzi Brookbree 48:29

You ever thought about that,

Sage Moreaux 48:30

Go ahead.

Zinzi Brookbree 48:30

Sage?

Katherine Suzette 48:31

I have.

Zinzi Brookbree 48:32

I absolutely have

Sage Moreaux 48:33

have not. No, I have not ever thought, I guess I don't Well, yeah, I don't read enough portal fantasy maybe, first of all. But secondly, I have a really hard time, that's the hardest thing for me with writing, is being super mean to my characters because I'm conflict avoidant and I'm generally pretty nice. And so, like, that's been one of the things that I've had to, like, push myself in revisions is, like, how do I make this harder? How do I make this more terrible? which is fun, definitely. But I've never then gone the distance of being like, what if this was real? Like, am I actually God? That's what it feels like then, and that's a little too much to feel like you're creating this and that it really I would wanna be so nice.

Katherine Suzette 49:19

Yes.

Sage Moreaux 49:20

If I'm writing something that's gonna make, like a cozy, I'd have to write a cozy.

Zinzi Brookbree 49:25

Hey, there's a reason I write cozy fantasy I want to be a kind god

Katherine Suzette 49:30

if, like, I'm a character in a book because, I was raised Christian and, and so I've always kind of wondered, if god knows all of this, it must be plotted out for a reason. And, over the course of the last year, for some reason, I've just decided that, so many of my, better choices and things, I'm like, "Do it for the character arc." Or, like, the bad things that happen, I'm like, "Oh, it's an opportunity to improve on that character arc." So I'm like, just everything is do it for the character arc

Zinzi Brookbree 49:58

can we have that on our merch, Katherine? Can we have do it for the character arc shirts, please?

Sage Moreaux 50:04

I love that. I love it. We're doing it

Katherine Suzette 50:07

it for the character arc.

Sage Moreaux 50:09

I will say that anytime a negative situation happens to me, like if I'm going through something difficult or like had somebody come talk to me as I was walking down the street that was Became very uncomfortable and, was a couple years ago, but I, I remember after that situation, I was like, that emotion and write it into a story." This situation is a good moment of like difficulty that I can translate into story. So, yeah. They say you also write yourself into your books, and I always am trying not to have every single character just be an aspect of myself

Zinzi Brookbree 50:43

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 50:44

Did we end, did the chapters end with the almost kiss?

Zinzi Brookbree 50:47

In chapter

Sage Moreaux 50:49

it?

Zinzi Brookbree 50:50

22, thank you, um, it says that the Butcher is gonna display the body tonight, so, like, that is... That's gonna happen after this, trip to the cemetery for Reynald, Maggie, and Kaiden. another thing that happens, while there is Maggie gives, Reynald the lucky coin from Everard, as a, as a token of good luck, right? that's even extra display of her emotional attachment to him and, how much she wants him to be okay, 'cause she doesn't trust, knowing, what she does about the serial killer, the Butcher, that he's gonna make it out of there without getting harmed.

Sage Moreaux 51:31

Yeah, I forgot that she gave him the coin. That was really sweet. And it clearly, like it's been brought up enough times that it's meaningful to her. she's rubbed it and like fiddled with it enough times to known that she uses it as a good luck charm. so Yeah, that definitely talks about, like mentions or makes you realize how much she cares about him. I was thinking about, So I have a, a theory. Can we go into theories or are we,

Zinzi Brookbree 51:59

Yeah, no, let's go into theories. Yep

Sage Moreaux 52:02

always ready for the theories. Okay. So there's so much about, Sauven and Ralinbor, the two half-brothers, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 52:08

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 52:09

who he killed. Did he kill him directly?

Zinzi Brookbree 52:13

Sovin and Ralon Bor, yes. He kills him directly and then he has, the wife executed and the, like their house that they lived in burned, and that's where the son dies is in the burning of the house As far as the record goes. Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 52:33

there was a detail about how she was talking again about the book, and I'm always so fascinated when she talks about the book 'cause it's like a fictional book that is not

Zinzi Brookbree 52:41

I want to read The Thieves of the North.

Sage Moreaux 52:42

And

Zinzi Brookbree 52:43

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 52:43

about, like, it's a very different style book 'cause it's multiple point of view characters. It's third person. I

Zinzi Brookbree 52:50

Oh, 100%. I will probably actually hate it 'cause it doesn't have all the cozy

Sage Moreaux 52:53

Yes.

Zinzi Brookbree 52:53

still wanna read it because of Maggie

Sage Moreaux 52:56

totally. And, but there's like random scenes that appear that you don't know why they're meaningful at this point, and she never knows

Zinzi Brookbree 53:03

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 53:04

the Book the series hasn't been

Zinzi Brookbree 53:05

Book three isn't out, yep. Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 53:11

was rescued. And so she thinks, just like she thinks that, what's his name's brother commits suicide, but she doesn't know for a fact, 'cause there's a

Zinzi Brookbree 53:19

Ella Grin, yep

Sage Moreaux 53:21

So like there's a few things where she is definitely making her own theories and predictions, which is so fun,

Zinzi Brookbree 53:28

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 53:28

there's been a lot of talk about Sovereign and Ralinbor, and that, first of all, because the body is about to be hung on the, the, statue that is recognizing this knight or this, This there's like the Knight Redeemer, some, some statue. So

Zinzi Brookbree 53:45

This is the Night Vanquisher Plaza

Sage Moreaux 53:48

That's it.

Zinzi Brookbree 53:49

that this is about to go down at

Sage Moreaux 53:51

yeah, and, and that has to do with the, when they had their big fight. and no?

Zinzi Brookbree 53:57

the Night Vanquisher. You're talking about the Dursan statue, which is where they're at in the cemetery is a Dursan, which is like a lion-dragon magical creature, and that's what spawns that whole conversation because Ralen Borkan, had the ability to control them with the Exalted Call from his father, and an affinity for Dursans from his mother's side of the line

Sage Moreaux 54:21

So that's what I wanted to get into. Okay, so he has this lesser... Okay, I had two things about The Exalt and Call. That's what I- So, okay, I thought the statue was related to it, but there's been a lot of talk about those two characters in these last couple of chapters. And so first of all, he had a lesser version of the magic, almost like, I don't know what you would call it, like a, like a parallel version of the magic, not quite as strong is what it seemed like. And I feel like there was talk about, like, the ma- you might have the main kind of magic, or then some f- members of the family had, like, a lesser version or a, a related version of this thing. And it made me start thinking about Maggie's ability come back to life, and I started to wonder if she had some magical, like we know there's, what, there's four magic families, and then there's four

Zinzi Brookbree 55:14

Uh, so,

Sage Moreaux 55:15

families that are something else,

Zinzi Brookbree 55:16

no, okay. So there's eight great families, four of which use their magic in military ways, that they're known as being military families, and then four of which are not, and we don't know, I don't think we know all of the details of all of them at this point in the book. but we do know about the Exalted Call, which King Sauven Severic has. We know about the Fatefire, which is what, Everard, the, Duke of Selis has. there is the Rageglow, which is, belongs to Bors something or other, and that's like a berserker rage. and then Arvel... Yeah,

Sage Moreaux 55:59

of the Assholes

Zinzi Brookbree 56:01

Lord of the Assholes. Um, and then I love those details that are just like, oh, I know exactly who we're talking about now 'cause of this extra note. and then Arvel, who has, I'm forgetting what it's called, but he can do, he can do like a whole golden shielding thing, which has been described.

Sage Moreaux 56:18

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 56:18

so those are like the four military abilities. Then the other ones we know about are the Yolenas having the ability to find like precious minerals and stuff, and they're, they're the, one of the other great families. And then Hreban having, he has an ability to, I know Maggie's talked about it, but I'm, I think it's called like the Mirrorheart or something. But, so there's still, that's two, right, that we don't have full details on at this point

Sage Moreaux 56:48

Yeah. Great. Okay, so that makes my theory stronger that something about Maggie coming back to life might have to do, this goes along with my thing of her being originally from this

Zinzi Brookbree 56:58

her to be like a secret royal?

Sage Moreaux 57:00

Um, she, she talks about at the beginning how usually when you're isekai'd, you end up being a secret royal, and no, she had the bad luck of being a beggar naked on the

Zinzi Brookbree 57:10

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 57:10

like, just saying, like, where does this magic of being able to come back to life come from? That's unusual, and it seems like only these eight families have this level of magic, so maybe that is a reason. 'Cause I'm trying to find a reason for

Zinzi Brookbree 57:23

Mm-hmm. Okay.

Sage Moreaux 57:27

undying.

Zinzi Brookbree 57:28

Uh

Sage Moreaux 57:28

so that was my one theory, and then my other theory was that, I'll just say it real quick, was that, maybe Renauld had that Exultant Call. He had experienced it, so maybe he's still under the sway. I don't think this is true. But, uh, he, when he

Zinzi Brookbree 57:42

That's the theory.

Sage Moreaux 57:43

Call and how, he talked about how he'd experienced all four of those

Zinzi Brookbree 57:47

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 57:47

mentioned,

Zinzi Brookbree 57:48

he has

Sage Moreaux 57:48

when he talked about the Exultant Call, I was like, it sounds like he has very detailed, personal, firsthand experience of being under the sway of the king, and maybe he still is

Zinzi Brookbree 57:58

Mm.

Sage Moreaux 57:59

Okay. I said, I don't necessarily know that I think that's the case, but, uh, that would

Zinzi Brookbree 58:04

That's, that's a fun theory.

Sage Moreaux 58:06

thing to do to

Zinzi Brookbree 58:07

Yeah. all right, so I do wanna plug in here, and I'm gonna link this into, our show notes. the author on their blog- you two aren't allowed to go read this, by the way, 'cause spoilers. But but, after you're done with the book, there is both a, a character breakdown, cast of characters page on their blog, as well as this is how the magic works on their blog. there is the great families, which is called bloodline magic. There are two other kinds of magic, but I'm not gonna talk about them here because we're gonna learn maybe more about them later in the book

Sage Moreaux 58:43

Wow. Okay. I can't wait to finish.

Zinzi Brookbree 58:45

I'm so mean. I'm sorry. I'm just like, "Here, here's a fun thing. You can't have it, only me." I have-

Sage Moreaux 58:53

almost as much as a good map.

Zinzi Brookbree 58:56

I have already promised, that the, one of the next books that we do, we can do one that Sage or Katherine gets to be the person that reads ahead, and I get to be in the hot seat of making predictions and theories and not being in the know, because it's only fair.

Sage Moreaux 59:10

And then we'll practice our poker faces

Zinzi Brookbree 59:11

I'm really excited. The author released, official art that's vellum that you can put into this copy of the book. So it's got a bunch of the characters that will go into here, and then also comes with, like a bonus map and a little assigned book plate and stuff. so I ordered that. It's still on pre-order, on their blog, so that's something you can get for yourself, for this version and a couple of the other versions. I think they have a couple different sizes.

Sage Moreaux 59:44

Do I have to wait to finish reading it before I can go online and pre-order? Like, will just going to pre-order that ruin it for, like, spoilers for me?

Zinzi Brookbree 59:51

if you read our next assignment, then you can pre-order. So get through our

Sage Moreaux 59:57

episodes

Zinzi Brookbree 59:57

get through the next chunk of chapters and then you can go. I feel like that's sufficient enough.

Sage Moreaux 1:00:03

Okay. Fair

Katherine Suzette 1:00:04

that said, what are our assigned chapters?

Sage Moreaux 1:00:08

Let's go. Katherine, did you have any other predictions?

Katherine Suzette 1:00:10

I like gave them as we went, and then also I don't, I haven't been writing them down. That's part of the reason why I'm super excited to have the print copy now, because I'll just like write in it, predictions and stuff.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:22

a future version of our podcast that I would love to do or just something between the three of us would be, to each get a copy of one of our favorite books and read through it and write in the margins, and then mail it to each other and let the next person read through and write in the margins their responses, And then at the end of it, you get back your favorite book, but then your friends have added their snark and comments and, you know, little highlighted doodles into it as well, and I would love,

Katherine Suzette 1:00:49

I love

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:49

I would love to do that

Katherine Suzette 1:00:50

book two?

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:51

We'll see. that it would

Katherine Suzette 1:00:53

We'd have to do a lot of overnight shipping,

Sage Moreaux 1:00:55

Oh, Zinzi, can we make the next book in this series be the one you're not allowed to read the whole thing of?

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:00

Oh, fuck no

Katherine Suzette 1:01:01

Oh.

Sage Moreaux 1:01:04

I'm sorry, that's terrible. That was super mean. This is me practicing being mean as an author

Katherine Suzette 1:01:13

I love that that's like the torture. You're like, "Don't read the book." Ultimate

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:17

Can't, you can't...

Sage Moreaux 1:01:18

to read your favorite

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:18

Oh. Way to ruin the friendship.

Katherine Suzette 1:01:24

Well,

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:24

Oh my gosh We need to get back to, your homework for the next episode is to read 23 outside of this podcast, you can find us at Book Dragon Ink, as well as Come Write With Me at Write With Me Zinzi Bree on Substack. We'd love for you to check those out. You can find the links in our show notes. if you just like our book stuff here on the pod, you can check out our Substack, and support us directly. Thank you to our subscribers who are already doing so. It is really appreciated. or you can leave us a review. It helps little indie podcasts like ours get noticed. Thank you so much for tuning in. shout-out to our subscriber, Ria Nancoo, who continues to support us over there on Substack. You're amazing. We heart you

Katherine Suzette 1:02:07

Aw, thank you,

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:08

Oh. As Reynald says, That's one thing about you, Maggie. Being with you is never boring.'" That is not his accent. Hold on, I can do that again. As Reynald says, "That's the thing about you, Maggie. Being with you is never boring."

Katherine Suzette 1:02:23

I'll take it. It's still sexy

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:24

Thank you.

Sage Moreaux 1:02:25

And, as Goldeneyes from The Garden says to Maggie, "You're moving up in the world."

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:30

Thanks for being here. See you next time.

Sage Moreaux 1:02:32

goodbye.

Katherine Suzette 1:02:34

Bye