Good Teeth, Bad Plan - Chapters 6-10 This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me - Read-along

Book Dragon Banter continues a spoiler-free read-along of Ilona Andrews’ This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me, covering chapters 6–10. Zinzi Bree, Sage, and Katherine discuss first impressions of the newly introduced Reynald, Clover, and Kaiden, praising how the book handles extreme violence and noting the realism of consequences like the heaviness of bodies and having to dispose of them. They talk about Maggie’s shifting agency, how being “undying” changes risk tolerance, and how found family raises stakes. They highlight character intelligence and trust-building, especially the mirrored “in or out” line and the boat conversation where Maggie and Reynald acknowledge mutual manipulation and reject “blind obedience,” contrasting this with romantasy tropes. They also debate how reliable Maggie’s book-based future knowledge is, offer theories (the author’s identity, KR/LM initials, the Stelka returning), discuss Mateo’s farseeing role, and admire Solentine’s intriguing window entrance and how he knows Maggie’s name, ending with reading homework and a request for spoiler-free listener predictions.

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Our Summer Read-Along: This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me (Bookshop.org affiliate link): 

https://bookshop.org/p/books/this-kingdom-will-not-kill-me-ilona-andrews/f544c8f1dba95f55?ean=9781250377265&next=t&aid=124342&listref=book-dragon-book-club-reads

00:00 Welcome to Book Dragon Banter

00:32 Read Ahead Confessions

01:57 Podcast and Retreat Sponsor

02:34 Chapter Six Bodyguard Deal

04:08 Basement Rescue Setup

05:01 Chapter Eight Fight Breaks Out

06:38 Aftermath New Home

07:53 Chapter Ten Dark Prophecy

09:59 Solentine Window Visit

10:29 Key Moments New Characters

13:42 Reynald First Impressions

20:26 Clover Kaiden and Violence

27:14 Full Circle Callbacks

30:53 Character Trust Issues

31:26 Boat Confrontation Scene

34:27 Humor Amid Darkness

34:55 Future Knowledge Glitches

36:55 Salt Thread Revenge Plan

39:42 Solentine Window Entrance

43:03 Maggie the Undying Identity

43:56 Justice and Found Family

51:23 Predictions and Theories

01:01:05 Wrap Up and Homework

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:05

Welcome. We see the assassins have failed. We are Book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy-focused but not exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me, Zinzi Bree, as we read This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews. Read or reread along with us. We're so glad you're here. Now's a great time to hit that subscribe button so you don't miss the next episode we'll be keeping spoilers out of the read-along as we're saving them for our mini season wrap-up pajama party. I have already read the book multiple times, but we are testing Sage and Katherine's self-control to not read ahead. How's that going, you guys?

Katherine Suzette 0:43

Self-control?

Sage Moreaux 0:43

For me, really good.

Katherine Suzette 0:45

self-control is really hard. I think I still read about a chapter or two ahead. I

Zinzi Brookbree 0:51

Katherine,

Katherine Suzette 0:52

Whatchu doin'! I am enjoying the anticipation. I just, I also really enjoy, you know, going beyond boundaries a little bit.

Sage Moreaux 1:08

Whereas I'm a rule follower because I am lawful good. I have just read through chapter 10. I did wanna keep reading, but I didn't. helps that I'm like crazy busy this month, so that helps me be like, "Okay, I'm supposed to stop here, so I should just go do something else right now instead of continuing to read." if it was like middle of, of like vacation and I had nothing else to do, then my, my lawful good would be tested for sure.

Katherine Suzette 1:37

I'm definitely not lawful good. I'm not good at rule following. Somebody sets a rule and I'm like, "How can I break it, go beyond it, or get around it?" That, that is my instinct, I am my best to honor this and have fun with it, so I might have read at least chapter 11. that I caught myself though and stopped.

Sage Moreaux 1:57

That being said, this is an explicit podcast so that we can share our unfiltered and unbiased opinions. I don't know where I got unbiased from,

Zinzi Brookbree 2:07

It's like these are definitely not unbiased. This is full bias. I'm very biased. We are moving on to our chapter summaries, sponsored by Book Dragon, Ink. That is Sage, Katherine, and my company, where we host monthly themed writing retreats that have online workshops, access to our book coaches, Sage and Katherine, as well as writing sprints, and a fantastic community. You can check out our upcoming writing retreats with the link in the show notes. And onto our summaries.

Katherine Suzette 2:34

Chapter six. Same. her favorite characters, Reynald, a sword master that she can deal with so he'll become her bodyguard. We love a good bodyguard. the speech to convince him, we learn how the kingdom's veterans are provided for, if they survive. Reynald did, only to come home and find his wife was murdered and his son was missing, and he wants revenge on the slaver who did it. We know who it is, Derog Olgren. That's why he's, like, standing outside this house staring at it, or lying in the tea house across the street. This fortress of a house that Derog Olgren is in, is a genuine fortress, and Maggie knows how to get in. So Maggie uses some of that knowledge about Reynald's son and his wife and how to get into the house to convince Reynald to be on her side. Takes a minute, and Maggie has to share some private moments of Reynald's life and thoughts and who he is in order to, convince him that she's worth trusting and listening to. He finally agrees to guard her in exchange for revenge on Derog. This is definitely why one of my predictions from our last episode is definitely true, and I'm very happy about that. Well, I mean, I'm not... I mean, we'll get there.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:42

You're not happy that she died, but

Katherine Suzette 3:44

right.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:44

you're happy that you were right

Sage Moreaux 3:46

While waiting for the start of the plan, we learn that King Sauven and Ralinbor, his half-brother ride or die, had beef, resulting in the death of Ralinbor in battle, his wife by execution, and his son believed to be killed by fire. Reynald and Maggie argue about the plan until she says she's doing it with or without him. There's kids to save, goddammit. He finally agrees. Darotha arrives having her own desire for revenge on Derog. She's agreed for a price to sell Maggie to him. Being out of the desired age bracket, Maggie pretends to be a vulnerable adult to make her desirable to a slaver, we learn Maggie's not a virgin, but that's not what Derog wants her for. He's got a particular client with a phobia of bad teeth. Maggie's teeth are an ode to modern dentistry and Crest 3D White. She's got that million-dollar smile.

Katherine Suzette 4:37

Not sponsored by Crest 3D White, but we do recommend everybody brush their teeth.

Sage Moreaux 4:42

brought to the basement, where six kids are kept, a teenage girl, and three more girls under seven, and another boy totally dead. Maggie forces herself to stay in the act. She can't save the other kids if she ends up dead herself, so she cleans up the bloody mess.

Zinzi Brookbree 5:00

Chapter eight. Maggie remembers book knowledge that there's a board in the latrine that has a secret tunnel behind it for a small enough child to get out, but the board has to be broken and the group is being watched. Maggie serves as a distraction by enraging the guard with staring and then screaming. Clover broke the board and Kaiden slipped out to unbolt the door keeping Reynald out before coming back. In the meantime, the screaming summoned Derog back into the room along with another guard, and the plan is at risk, but Clover's quick thinking and Kaiden's return send Derog back upstairs. After the kids are sent to bed, Reynald slips through the door and kills the first slaver so he dies slowly in pain as he should. The other guards come rushing down and meet similar fates at the sword of Reynald He prioritizes protecting Maggie and the children over better positioning in the fight. Kaiden makes a run for it, stealing a knife on the way to get his revenge on Derog, and Maggie chases to save him from himself. Kaiden is losing a fight with Lasa, the accountant, until Maggie charges in and smashes in his head with a club repeatedly. Her rage allows Derog to sneak up on her and put a knife to her throat while Kaiden slips away. Derog threatens to kill Maggie if Reynald doesn't let him go. Reynald is going to let him slip away, so Maggie forces Derog's hand and dies a second time from a slit throat

Katherine Suzette 6:18

So she dies for the second time in the exact situation, well, almost exact situation I, I thought would happen. I figured she'd die in this house in this fight. So yeah, I'm smart. All right, moving on.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:31

Pat yourself on the back. Correct prediction, ding. One point for Katherine

Katherine Suzette 6:35

I just got very specific about she's gonna die in this house,

Zinzi Brookbree 6:38

Maggie wakes up in a lot of pain, but hey, she's alive, the kids are safe, and Derog is dead. Yay. Also, now they have a house or fortress, the kids need safety until they can be returned home, and it's not like the guards are going to come knocking. Hey, Maggie's priority of finding a place to live, check. The kids get bathed, the bodies get wrapped, Reynald knows his stuff, and everyone gets a good night's sleep. Breakfast, cleaning, and taking stock of the blood money happens next. Reynald uses some of the money to buy a boat to dump the bodies because, of course, that's what you do. Maggie hits the ledgers and learns about Reynald's son being sold and stolen by request. By potentially Silveren the lord of the Knight Redeemers. Now they've got another baddie on their hit list, but they need to extract Mateo carefully. Back to the books, the three young girls can go home to their parents, but Kaiden is an orphan, and Clover is a discarded servant. Ah, we've arrived at the beginning of our found family trope, a personal favorite. they weren't in the books Maggie read, but they sure are real and need someone to care about them. Someone needs to stop Hreban from burning down the city just when these kids start to feel safe. That someone is going to be Maggie, somehow, which she says to Reynald, along with too much information about the future.

Sage Moreaux 7:53

Chapter 10, Reynald zeroes in on Maggie like a wolf looking at prey until she spills more of the beans. war breaks out, famine, atrocities, slaughter, an invasion, and a plague, all starting with the murders of three powerful figures in Kair Toren, including the assassination of the crown prince. Just your standard epic fantasy fare. The capital burns for three days and is named the Night of a Thousand Fires. Even the countryside isn't spared. The town of Apple Grove takes refugees in, and they have every 10th male slaughtered, babies included. reveals Reynald is supposed to die after several painful events. Reynald asks after Clover, knowing that Clover and Kaiden are secretly listening in. Maggie shares that she doesn't know. does it all end? doesn't know that either. The second book stops with the Civil War still raging and the invasion by the Crimson Empire going on at the same time. and Reynald continue to talk about court intrigue and possible future events, where Maggie says she's going to air all of Hreban's secrets and bring about his downfall. Reynald commits to helping her and they argue about each other's life value until Clover reveals herself and Reynald calls out Kaiden. Clover shares that her family is in Apple Grove, including a whole slew of brothers. Reynald and Clover gang up on Maggie saying they have a right to help in this fight too. Eventually, Clover steamrolls Maggie and declares herself Steward Maid and Reynald Head Guard. Maggie, obviously, is now Lady of the House. Clover for MVP. Reynald throws Maggie's I'll do this with or without you line in her face. They finally move on and Reynald and Maggie load the very heavy dead bodies into the boat and set sail down the small river to meet with the larger one much better for dumping bodies. Reynald and Maggie have a conversation about trust and acknowledging mutual manipulation. Then they dump the bodies and see them get eaten by terrifying river monsters. mean, really, what bodies? Now there's nothing to worry about. Maggie is getting ready for bed, Solentine slips through the third floor window because he can. She left it open, even after Reynald told her not to. Solentine already knows Maggie's name, but otherwise she's a mystery to him. for him and how intriguing. Solentine pays her a small fortune and Maggie fangirls again as he jumps out the window.

Zinzi Brookbree 10:22

and that is it for our summary of chapters six through 10.

Sage Moreaux 10:27

It's a lot.

Zinzi Brookbree 10:28

yeah. Yeah, it is. Moving into key moments, and in this particular, moment, we have met three new significant characters in this story, Reynald, Clover, and Kaiden. What'd you guys think? Do you like them?

Sage Moreaux 10:43

Yeah. really liked how, so this was like a super bloody section of the book, I thought was extremely well done. Uh, we could always talk about that later, but I really liked how there was like this underlying that these atrocities had happened to these children, and at least at this point, they're not clarified. atrocities to children is awful, and like I don't actually wanna read about it, but it was presented in a way that like we know it's just terrible, and that felt like kind of enough, and it gave a lot of empathy, to them, and a lot of wanting Maggie, like to feel like Maggie was in and help them out, and like it really gave, gave that goal that she had of saving the children a lot more. I mean, obviously that's a great thing to do anyways, but it kinda gave it a like an extra importance.

Zinzi Brookbree 11:39

Yeah. I, I really appreciate the timing that, Maggie comes into the situation, right? Because there's a boy that has just... He's died. He died three hours ago. He died before she could have done anything to save him, and I appreciate that, like, we don't see his death on the page. We don't have to worry about, okay, is Maggie gonna try and get involved and save this boy and potentially screw up the plans for everybody just trying to save his life, right? Like, that, option gets taken out of her hands, so we don't have to see, as readers, him get tortured, murdered on page, and we get a character opportunity in Derog showing how focused he is on profit, right, in the way that he treats his nephew because he harmed the merchandise. and that justifies him being protective over Maggie and her being in a safe, safe environment among these slavers, right? Even though she's not a traditional, purchase for him, she is then also, for the reader, you get to see, okay, he's gonna in some ways protect her because he sees dollar signs when he looks at her teeth

Sage Moreaux 12:51

could just imagine every time they told her to smile and she would smile, I just imagine like a little video with the teeth sparkling,

Zinzi Brookbree 12:58

Yeah, like a little It makes me think of, there's a movie with Russell Crowe where he's in France, and, like, he's there to take over a winery, and this, young woman shows up on the front door, and she speaks French to him, but then she smiles, and he doesn't even bother to try and respond in French. He just speaks in English, 'cause he's like, "Yeah, I can tell you're an American 'cause of your tee- Like, nobody has teeth like that except Americans." Not true. I'm sure there's other places in the world that have great dentistry, but just, like, there's, you know, movie star teeth in Hollywood is a thing.

Sage Moreaux 13:29

Maybe all the veneers.

Zinzi Brookbree 13:31

did you gu-

Sage Moreaux 13:31

Not for Maggie.

Zinzi Brookbree 13:32

if she's supposed to be an, an ordinary person, it's probably just, you know, they're good, straight. They're nice, white, not veneers, but just a good, yeah, good teeth. what did you guys think of, the first meeting with Reynald right? Like, how cold he is, how long it takes Maggie to convince him to, listen to her. Did it feel like it, like she had to work at it?

Katherine Suzette 13:58

Yeah,

Sage Moreaux 13:59

I was totally distracted at this point because I decided to use the map. And when you look at the map, if you have your book with you, you should turn to the map right now here is the Taryz Tea House, and on the other side of the river is this big fortress-y looking building, which has to be the building they're talking about, and it's labeled as Maggie's house.

Zinzi Brookbree 14:19

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 14:20

And I was like, come on! Now I don't

Zinzi Brookbree 14:23

There's

Sage Moreaux 14:23

need to make a prediction about it. It's

Zinzi Brookbree 14:25

s- there's a spoiler. Spoiler in the map. Yeah

Sage Moreaux 14:28

so anyways, I got distracted by that, but, uh, I felt like it was true to character for him. Like, if he had just bowed down to her right away, then wouldn't be that, like, stoic soldier type person that I think he's meant to come off as

Zinzi Brookbree 14:46

I've done the audiobook multiple times. I just wanna shout out to the narrator making the choice of giving, Reynald a bit of an accent in the audiobook that just make, makes him very enjoyable to listen to. and it's just, it's a nice character choice

Katherine Suzette 14:58

Yeah. I think it also helps, like, solidify for listeners that he's not from Kair Toren originally. So, I liked that choice as well

Zinzi Brookbree 15:10

Do you guys have any other thoughts on Reynald, or should we head over to talking about Clover and Kaiden and their parts to play

Katherine Suzette 15:17

I thought it was very interesting how in the book description that Maggie knew of Reynald, she expected him to come across as a lot more aged, and he doesn't, and that seems to be the case a lot of the time. like with meeting, a couple of the characters, they seem to her, or at least not as, lined or aged by whatever life events were described in the books that she read. So I thought that that was an interesting note,

Zinzi Brookbree 15:47

Yeah, there's been a couple of instances where she's like the, the real life is different from what she imagined in, in her head, right, in the book. I think Solentine is one of the, is like his descr- she's like, "He's spot on the way he's described in the book, and now seeing him in person, that's Solentine is Solentine. You can't mistake him."

Sage Moreaux 16:05

I can't remember his name, the guy that gave her the money at the very beginning, the, like, super baddie.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:11

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 16:13

he looked different to her than what she expected,

Zinzi Brookbree 16:16

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 16:17

acted a little differently. Like, he gave off a different vibe than what she expected from reading the books.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:22

W- you're, you're talking about Everard, and he's he's the Sleepless Duke he's, his reputation is all just ruthless murderer. Maggie, like she even brings up his name later in these chapters when she's trying to convince, Reynald that, he shouldn't join in, he shouldn't try to help her with, her bigger plan, right, to take down Hreban. She's like, "You're gonna have... You might have to duel him." You... And even she's thinking you're not gonna win that battle because of her knowledge of the character and the book. and Reynald blinks, uh, in reaction, and she goes, you know, Everard is even scary to Reynald

Sage Moreaux 17:04

Mm.

Zinzi Brookbree 17:04

this big bad that's, we're potentially, no spoilers, gonna see later in the book, um, or not, we'll see

Sage Moreaux 17:13

I think it even said, like, if they thought Everard would clearly... Oh, he has some sort of magical ability, and

Zinzi Brookbree 17:19

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 17:20

talked about the different magical abilities. I thought Reynold was really well... I thought that how long it took her to convince him and the way she, like, listed out all of his backstory and the things that happened to him, whether it was backstory in the book or actually events that happened is unclear. I thought that was a really good choice by the, writers because you kind of got this sense of this character who was an honorable soldier who worked for years for the kingdom, was very, like, talk about lawful good, right? Like, he was

Zinzi Brookbree 17:55

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 17:56

showed up, went through all these things, survived, like, the final piece where you might not even, like, if you get through all this, then you do one more tour of duty or whatever, and you

Zinzi Brookbree 18:06

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 18:07

he survived that. And then to have his wife and son ki- or his wife killed and his son kidnapped was like, what a fuck in the head.

Zinzi Brookbree 18:16

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 18:17

so that, like, that whole story basically, it was a nice way to give backstory with her telling it.

Zinzi Brookbree 18:23

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 18:24

be- and it kind of grounded that character. Like, now he has-- we know what his motivation is, we know what his character type is, and, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 18:32

Yep

Sage Moreaux 18:33

all of his actions from here on out m- will, I mean, unless he goes out of character, will have been, like, foundat- the foundation was there just from that conversation. And it would also, like, if you imagine sitting at a teahouse plotting your revenge and being all moody and stuff, and some rando lady comes up

Zinzi Brookbree 18:50

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 18:51

talking to you about, like, "I'm gonna hire you," like, you'd probably be a little suspicious or just like, "You know what? I've been through a lot, and I just don't really need this today."

Zinzi Brookbree 18:59

Mm-hmm. kudos to him for even hearing her out

Sage Moreaux 19:02

right?

Katherine Suzette 19:03

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 19:03

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 19:04

good how the backstories and elements are in this story. Now, of course, as one of my ways of staying distracted, but kind of also in the vibe, is that I've been reading through a prior series of the couple, Ilona Andrews, I, I notice all these patterns in the writing, also I see where it has, like, polished up a little bit, too. so, Ilona does do a lot of information-giving through the character's perspective, as if the character is telling the audience,

Sage Moreaux 19:42

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 19:44

I see that done in this particular book, with this unique angle in a really good way. I think that it was a really interesting choice. I really like it. I think it is well-handled. I think that it could feel like too much backstory if it wasn't a portal fantasy wherein the character knew what was going on or what might go on already, and was, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 20:05

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 20:06

things through their prior lens of, like, living, in the, in the real world, our world. So I, I like that, even just the commentary on, like, they do have good hygiene habits, like they have toilets and stuff, but they don't have toothbrushes. know, just things like that, ground us

Zinzi Brookbree 20:24

Yep

Katherine Suzette 20:25

world as readers

Zinzi Brookbree 20:26

moving on to Clover and Kaiden. Now we've just been introduced to them. We're, this is the first glimpses at, of their personality, and these are the first characters that Maggie doesn't have, insider information about. these are real people, but she doesn't know their stories, and There's, in part of the scene, she falls back on her modern knowledge, right? Like she looks at Clover and go, "Oh, you're a 17-year-old, you're still a child by modern world standards." And then she gets, or Reynald corrects her and goes, "No, like, she's a full-grown woman who can make her own decisions." Because in their world, as a 17-year-old, he was signed up for the military. He was, in the army earning his reputation, right? There's gonna be some adjustment for Maggie as she learns that all of the characters have had to grow up much sooner than she had to with her, you know, the, her real life that she got to experience where she was sheltered, and, you know, the worst thing that has happened to her happened, we assume, by being dumped into Kair Toren. also I wanna touch on, Maggie freaking murders somebody in these sets of chapters

Sage Moreaux 21:48

Yeah. have a line that I loved was before that happened, but it's related. She sa- and I love this line. It's, she says, like she's like, "If you don't help me, I'll have to stab Derog myself, and I've never stabbed anybody in my whole life."

Zinzi Brookbree 22:01

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 22:02

head she says, I only hit people with rocks. That was more my speed." I was like, I love that. Super funny. yeah, I'd be interested to see how her character cha- like, 'cause she comes into this world as we've talked about, kind of like an anybody and everybody. she has a comfortable life without a lot of trauma, and now she's in this environment where she's going to start having trauma. She's died twice. She just murdered somebody.

Zinzi Brookbree 22:34

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 22:36

she didn't seem too phased by it. She was, I mean, you know, in a fantasy world where there's, I mean in any world honestly, but especially in a fantasy world where there's all these atrocities happening,

Zinzi Brookbree 22:48

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 22:48

there's a level of like understanding that it's kill or be killed.

Zinzi Brookbree 22:54

Yeah, and she's already died. she's already gotten to the point where

Sage Moreaux 22:57

a...

Zinzi Brookbree 22:57

she has been killed. She knows it's life or death, and she knows if she charges in there, like even if she didn't beat this guy's brains in, her going and attacking gives Kaiden the chance to get away, and that even if she gets killed, she's gonna come back, right? She knows that, and that allows her to be braver than she might in other circumstances

Sage Moreaux 23:19

also knowing that these people like torture children and presumably do all sorts of nasty things to them,

Zinzi Brookbree 23:26

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 23:27

the

Zinzi Brookbree 23:28

It's deserved.

Sage Moreaux 23:28

and you would just be so un- upset and I think that adrenaline rage would kick in and it's, would take over a little bit

Katherine Suzette 23:36

this is one of the patterns that the authors have in their books that I've read, in which there's a very strong protective instinct that they leverage in their main characters. often, most often that I've read, their main female lead is very protective of children and family, and the main male lead is also protective of children and family, but then adds the female romantic interest to their, their retinue of people that they protect. so, like, they, the male lead protects their, their servants and their family and their families and all that kinda thing, and oftentimes there is an element of self-serving to that in which, like, the dude is protecting himself by doing so. But, main female lead becomes, like, his, his main priority in that there's a little bit of that, "I'll burn the world for, for you" kind of energy in that, which I have to say is really popular in modern romance, especially written for women. we love an element of danger that is overprotective and feels really safe. So, I love these character choices, most especially because they fit my preferences. So thank you, Ilona.

Sage Moreaux 24:53

I also really-- I'm reading another book right now where there is-- it's a romantasy, and there's a lot of glorified violence, and it's almost like if you're doing, if you're, if you're killing people in like, righteousness, you know, for the betterment of society or whatever, you can just kind of go about it coldly and without remorse. And I think that, that I don't like that personally. it almost like creates this feeling of like the violence is fun and enjoyable, and I think Ilona Andrews did a great job in this where the violence was very in your face, very well-written, but not overly glorified.

Zinzi Brookbree 25:39

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 25:40

I loved when they dragged the bodies out and the like realism hit, kicked in

Zinzi Brookbree 25:45

they're super heavy.

Sage Moreaux 25:46

right?

Zinzi Brookbree 25:47

It makes them all sweat.

Sage Moreaux 25:48

old dude.

Zinzi Brookbree 25:49

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 25:50

Mm-hmm. I appreciated it walked the line, 'cause I've talked about it before, I don't mind the violence in the fantasy setting because it feels realistic for the time or the situation or whatever, but I don't like it when it goes beyond and there is not, like, that piece of recko- reckoning with it.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:11

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 26:12

and even just having to go dump the bodies is a little bit of reckoning. Like, you have to deal with the mess

Zinzi Brookbree 26:17

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 26:18

I'm waiting to see, I'll be interested to see how Maggie starts to cope throughout as she I don't know if we know too much about her morals going into the book, but, like, as she is doing all this manipulation and stuff, I, as she is, you know,

Zinzi Brookbree 26:34

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 26:34

for the greater good, but, like, how will that affect her personality? I'll be really interested to see that.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:40

Hmm

Katherine Suzette 26:41

Definitely. I feel like we really set the scene, the background of Maggie, or at least, like, how she came to be there and, like, the barest essence of what we needed to know about who she is before the real character arc started, and I feel like these scenes really started her arc. She went from kind of passive to active now. Like, she's actively taking a role in this world, making changes, and all of that kind of thing,

Zinzi Brookbree 27:03

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 27:04

and she will have to eat consequences one way or another. I think that this was really important for establishing that, and kind of dramatically. And I, wanna go back to the rock thing. In the opening scenes when she had a rock, was this the rock that she, she made mention of, the line... Sage's favorite line, from this chapter of throwing? Is

Zinzi Brookbree 27:26

referencing the rock that she used to attack Lecke in the beginning. That's the rock that she's thinking about. Like, that's the thing that she comes up with, and that's what her, within her skillset is pick up a rock and try and fail and get yourself killed.

Katherine Suzette 27:40

I love it when g- when authors have, like, a little f- full circle moment with, like, tiny details. Like, not everything has to be a Chekhov's gun, and not everything has to come full circle like that, but I like it when there are elements like this one that do

Zinzi Brookbree 27:53

I love the callback lines of, Maggie told Reynald that, like, she's going into the house whether he helps her or not. She's already put things in motion. She knows there's kids that need to be saved, and she's doing it is he "in or out," and then they go through, you know, the whole conversation of, And I felt so bad for Reynald 'cause, the, he comes into the office, and the author talks about, oh, he sits down at the desk, he puts his feet up, he gets relaxed, he looks like he's relaxed because in his mind he doesn't know what's coming. The job is done. They saved the kids. You know, yes, he still has to go rescue his son, but at least for this moment things aren't on fire. But for Maggie, like, she's looking through this ledger and going, "This is how bad Derog is, but I know Hreban is so much worse. Everything is gonna get worse." The whole world, Kair Toren to her, she knows all of the things that are just gonna domino effect into worse and worse, and how bad it's gonna get, and that, you know, she has the thought, "I've just given, Kaiden and Clover false hope because I've saved them here, but they're probably gonna end up dead in just a couple of months when the Night of a Thousand Fires breaks out, when Apple Grove, everyone gets murdered." So, in my head I'm picturing that scene where, he's sitting there, and he's all relaxed, and job is done, and then she lays out, you know, "This is what's coming next," and just, the, the drawing in of, "I was a knight, I served this country, this is my responsibility, this is..." You know, and then looking at Maggie and going, "You're the way out." Right? Like, she has the knowledge that, and that is gonna happen, and she's already proved to him through this whole escapade, that, yes, she is undying, and then also that secret knowledge that she has is real. but then that goes into him throwing the line back at her about, I'm gonna fix it whether you're in or you're out. Which one is it?" And then she has to reply. Right? Like, we love when authors do that full circle, do that mirroring, give characters the same line but with different circumstances around saying them because it just, it feels so, it's so satisfying. That's what it is. It just feels so satisfying to, like, get, both characters in a conversation getting to have the same lines with different intentions.

Katherine Suzette 30:19

Yeah, I like it too. In some cases, like in this one, I feel like it kind of solidifies, our trust in the character and, like, their personality. Like, it helps me to understand the character who is saying these lines, these mirrored things, it shows either their transformation, or it shows, like, the grounded origin of their, their personality, like where they're coming from.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:40

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 30:41

so I mean that's like one of the main things that I will DNF a book for, is like when I lose trust in a character. Like, they break character, in a sense, and, and like go left field, and I'm like, cheese balls? The man just walks into the room, and all of a sudden you're a pouty, wimpy female who, like, absolutely will s- like let the guy come in and rescue you and do all of the things that you were so passionate about right before he walked into the room." Like, I have feelings, thoughts, opinions, lots of feelings. So I, I really like it when I can trust the character, and there's grounding and like a repetition of certain things, or a full circle moment where, like, I was set up to, to start to believe this about a character, and then, like, I can, I can actually believe this about a character now

Zinzi Brookbree 31:26

speaking about trust, what did you think of the conversation, and this is, this is one of the things that I loved, right? This conversation that Maggie and Reynald have in the boat about her recognizing and calling him out for the manipulation that he did by having, by letting Clover and Kaiden listen in to the conversation, and then dragging them in... You know, having them come into it, and also be part of a, of the bullying force, right? To get Maggie to agree to his terms.

Katherine Suzette 31:56

Yeah,

Zinzi Brookbree 31:56

And,

Katherine Suzette 31:56

I

Zinzi Brookbree 31:57

that's... And I liked

Sage Moreaux 31:58

also that he, like, he's a soldier, right? Who a lot of times you think of soldiers as being just like yes men. They follow their commander, and they do the thing. But this was him having agency, and I really liked that, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 32:11

Yeah. Part of that also comes from he is a knight. So he was a commander at times, during his service where he had to have agency. He ha- he had to make decisions and decide who he can trust and who he can't trust, right? because he would be in charge of the, soldiers beneath him, mercenaries that get hired for the army. So him being in a position of leadership is the norm for him

Sage Moreaux 32:38

makes I sense.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:40

there are still gonna be like higher ups in the, in the line of command, right? But when you're out on the field, those higher ups aren't still necessarily calling all of the shots. They just give you the, here's your big plan, and try and follow through the best you can once you're out doing it."

Katherine Suzette 32:57

Yeah. It, it really represented the characters' intelligence for me, and their willingness to be aware of and still manipulate or be aware of and still be manipulated. Like, that it displayed for Reynald that he could trust her to be clever and to still make these choices, and I think it really established for Maggie that he cared and that he wanted them to have some element of agency in the choices that Reynald and Maggie were about to make that would affect their lives. So I thought that that was... It, again, it built trust for me in, in both of the characters

Sage Moreaux 33:36

It, established, he was establishing, like, this is a team

Zinzi Brookbree 33:40

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 33:41

we're all part of this situation. This isn't you with your, you know, knowledge of the future getting to tell us how things are gonna go. We're gonna work together on this. We're all invested.

Zinzi Brookbree 33:51

No, 'cause

Sage Moreaux 33:51

I liked that

Zinzi Brookbree 33:52

he immediately balks when he's like, "You want blind obedience." And she's like, "No, I, I don't want blind obedience, but we need to acknowledge that we don't fully trust each other, and th- that's something that we're gonna have to work on as this continues, right, if we're gonna be successful." I appreciate seeing those conversations on page, cause I don't feel like we always get that, particularly in romantasy where they're too busy, you know, holding daggers at each other's throats and flirting, right, to have these kinds of conversations. To me, one of the really funny lines in that, in that sequence was, like, they're out on the boat, and there's the, the phosphorescent, you know, fish in the water, so it's kind of glowing, and the... And it's all pretty, and she's like, "Oh, it's such a romantic boat ride for me and Reynald and these 11 bodies."

Katherine Suzette 34:46

And the fish

Sage Moreaux 34:47

Yep.

Katherine Suzette 34:47

eating the bodies

Zinzi Brookbree 34:48

It's like there's such nice humor that is just kind of tucked in there, from some of those lines that I enjoy

Sage Moreaux 34:55

I was also thinking a lot about Maggie's knowledge of the future, knowledge of the future based on having read the books and, like, it's presented as she just knows and these things and, and even starting in chapter one when the guy showed up on the bridge, like she knew he would and she robbed him, things happen the way they do in the books. But then there's been these inconsistencies with the way that certain people look and the, you know, it's not, so it's not exactly... it starts to bring around this idea to me of, like, false narrator. At what point is... You know, then she's also changing things with her insertion

Zinzi Brookbree 35:39

And she's worried about it

Sage Moreaux 35:41

and she's worried about it, and at what point is some of the information not gonna be true? I have a theory. my theory is

Zinzi Brookbree 35:51

Okay

Sage Moreaux 35:52

of the books was a person who lived in the land and somehow ended up on Earth and ended up y- writing the books, right? And I think that it is this kid that maybe was supposedly killed in the fire, or they don't know about that.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:09

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 36:09

the ride or die son, I forget his name. that was my prediction from this, from this chunk of time. it was making me also think of like, what's called? Like, oh, like, i-irony, dramatic irony, and how with dramatic irony, that's when the reader knows stuff, but the character does not. And this is like opposite, where Maggie knows all this stuff, and she knows way more than we do about what's

Zinzi Brookbree 36:35

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 36:36

She's like telling bits and pieces here, and we're learning along with the side characters as she's revealing things. I thought that was really fun.

Katherine Suzette 36:44

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 36:45

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 36:45

like to watch a

Zinzi Brookbree 36:46

it's

Katherine Suzette 36:46

out their chessboard like this

Sage Moreaux 36:49

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:50

That's a great way to describe it. yeah, absolutely chess is being played here. there's... I wanted to also touch on, like, this chapter in part- but, like, there is so much information about what's supposed to happen that's revealed, right, to Reynald and Clover and Kaiden overhearing it. with Maggie knowing that every time she changes something, us as the reader has to wonder, you know, are those things still gonna happen? Are those things gonna happen sooner because of changes that she makes? At what point is she gonna make an assumption about something and then f- be, turn out to be completely wrong because she went, "Oh, this is w- what it said it is in the books," and then here it is, not that at all, right? Like, that potential is there too, because we've gotten those hints of, not everything is exactly as her interpretation of the books is. so it adds that extra, you know, not just, like, what's gonna happen in the plot, but also what is Maggie gonna get wrong? that adds tension and ramps up what's coming, for this next, as we go into part two, and, Maggie grabbing onto this... well, alls you guys know at this point, is it has something to do with salt, right? Like, she's out on the boat, she's smelling the salt breeze, and she goes, "Oh, salt. That's a, that's a thread I can pull on." and then, she starts to get into her head, and we get to see her start... Like, we don't get told what the plans are that she's formulating, but that she's starting to pull together an idea, about what to do next, how to start to get back at, Hreban, Hubris, Herbert, Hippopotamus. We're just gonna keep giving him different names because it's hard to pronounce according to the audiobook.

Katherine Suzette 38:45

Yeah, I love that.

Sage Moreaux 38:46

Now I wanna get the audiobook and listen.

Katherine Suzette 38:48

It's good.

Zinzi Brookbree 38:48

Do it

Katherine Suzette 38:50

Think that it's also really interesting how the authors are already establishing, like, the plans don't go according to plan. even just in, you know, our first section where Maggie goes to find a place to live, and she can't find one, and she figures out why. Like, okay, fair enough, but then she gets a place, and now she actually has a house, and she's like, "Well, what about the apartment?" kind of thing. Why did I even bother, in a way? But, you know, it,

Zinzi Brookbree 39:17

Yeah

Katherine Suzette 39:17

shows, like, i- in a way, like this Maslow's hierarchy of needs. Like, we establish our own physical safety and all of that, and then we can help others with theirs, and that's kinda where her original plan gets messed up. But it doesn't change the fact that she's safe. It actually makes her more safe, potentially, 'cause now she has Reynald and,

Zinzi Brookbree 39:36

And a defendable fortress to, to hide it, or to enact her plans from. I had to laugh, like part of the whole point of g- of going to Reynald and enacting this entire crazy scheme that gets her killed, right, is that she needs a bodyguard for the next time she goes to see Solentine and Solentine just comes through the window at the end of the section to drop off the money, right? And he already... I wanna know how he learned her name. At this point, the only people that we're aware that she has told her name to is Reynald, right, maybe Darotha.

Sage Moreaux 40:12

And all

Zinzi Brookbree 40:12

so unless, you know, it's t-

Sage Moreaux 40:15

dead, all the dead, the slavers knew her name, but they're all dead

Zinzi Brookbree 40:20

yeah, but they're all dead. They're, like, there was no time for that interaction to happen, so, unless, I don't know, maybe someone followed her into the tea house and overheard it there in that conversation, but then they'd also have heard, like, the Maggie the Undying part maybe or whatever. So, like, I would love to ask the authors how did Solentine get the information about her name, at that point. But just, like, also the, him coming in through the window, Reynald There's no way he could have gotten there in time if Solentine had wanted to kill her. so it's just kind of like that whole thing that you went through to get this guy on your side, it's great that he's on your side, but you didn't actually need him for the meeting. Yeah, no. And you have a fortress and you're leaving the window open, and someone can come through it, right? Like, it's a magical world

Sage Moreaux 41:10

hot. I thought, I was like, he just came in through the window out of nowhere, and it was all charm. It was, like, so hot. I was like, this, yes. She's talked about how he was one of her favorite characters

Zinzi Brookbree 41:20

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 41:20

It's a little Robin Hood kind of thing, I think. You, like, sail in through the window, you do some witty banter, deliver the money, and hop back out, and tell her to keep the window closed.

Zinzi Brookbree 41:31

At this point we've met a couple of hot guys that could all be potential love interests, but there is a line, about Solentine specifically that, Maggie had, like she- he wasn't one of the characters that she was, like, super shippy and romantic interest about. she, she had invested more in other characters like, Reynald and Pelegrin. and she comments about how much time that Solentine gets in, POV and that his, he's really fucked in the head. And that I'm sure for some people might be a turn-on, and it's good to know for her character and her morality, right? Like, that didn't make him more attractive and more of, like, a potential romantic interest. That was something that she was like, "Yeah, he's all these other things, but also he's this, and I'm smarter than that. I'm gonna stay away."

Sage Moreaux 42:27

thanks but no thanks.

Zinzi Brookbree 42:28

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 42:28

and I kind of love that kind of character where you have this very attractive, maybe mysterious or just, like, desirable male character but you know they're not gonna be the love interest because then you can just enjoy them for what they are. I don't, you know, I mean, I haven't read, so who knows, maybe she changes her idea about it.

Zinzi Brookbree 42:48

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 42:50

the way it's been presented, that's, he's just kind of like this hottie on the side that she just gets to enjoy engaging with without it having to be, like, this relationship-building element, and that's very, I find that to be very fun. I wanted to, when you were talking about how he knew her name, it made me think about how when she announces herself as Maggie the Undying,

Zinzi Brookbree 43:11

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 43:11

like a really seminal moment in the story where it's like she is claiming

Zinzi Brookbree 43:17

yeah, she's stepping into that identity. Mm-hmm

Sage Moreaux 43:20

Yeah, and, like, her identity in this world as opposed to her human Earth identity.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:26

Yeah, Maggie Haley

Sage Moreaux 43:27

it, so it's almost like it's, I wouldn't say it's the inciting incident so much, but it is, like, this seminal kind of like, "Here I am, and I'm owning that this is all," all this stuff that's happened to me leading up, that was like chapter six or seven,

Zinzi Brookbree 43:42

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 43:43

that's been happening leading up to this point

Zinzi Brookbree 43:45

In chapter six

Sage Moreaux 43:46

been kind of overwhelming, and now I'm, I'm owning it, and I'm, you know. I loved it.

Zinzi Brookbree 43:53

for theme of the week, Or theme of the episode, I should say. so we can kinda talk about getting revenge and starting, or the beginnings of found family, right? Cause those are two things that happen in this section of chapters where, Reynald starts to get revenge for what happened to his son, and, Maggie, even if it's not revenge exactly, but, we're told from her perspective, how much reading these books, how much the injustice that happened in them inspired her to pursue justice, right? She goes to college and pursues two majors around both of those things, even if she chickens out on one and changes to a different one that she feels is less, gets her less burnt out on pursuing justice and, and less burnt out on seeing the atrocities of humanity. but, her getting to go into this house and right a wrong that she saw play out in the story, Taking initiative herself and taking the opportunity of, like, I can speed things along, I can get, Not revenge, but justice for the children and justice for these characters that I enjoyed in this book, and the awful things that they had to endure at the hands of a, of a character that is now a person she can personally take revenge on, right? she had that opportunity, and was brave enough to do something about it. Yes, she's got the, that she's undying, but that doesn't mean she can't get hurt. That doesn't mean that, like, it isn't gonna suck to follow through on. do you guys think... Like, if you had been dumped in a, in a really awful world, do you think your instincts would be, "I'm gonna go and right the wrongs of the characters and the people and that I, of what I know is gonna happen," or would you just be like, "I just, I just gotta find a way to survive"? 'Cause I'm gonna be honest here, like, I am a coward and a stay-at-home per- I would love to say that I have enough of a sense of justice that I would go out there and try and right things, but realistically, I don't. I would be cowering in a corner, without some magic powers that would smooth the way for me to take, justice into my own hands

Sage Moreaux 46:17

yeah, I would probably try to learn magic if I was dumped. If there was any way at all

Zinzi Brookbree 46:23

Hello

Sage Moreaux 46:23

was a learned skill in one of these worlds, that's where I would be, a wizard tower. in terms of your actual question, yeah, I think it-- the fact that she knows all of this information gives her a leg up and makes it a little e- it's like if you were just dumped into a world and you didn't-- you knew injustices were happening, but you didn't have all this knowledge of it, she can be killed, but she comes back to life. So she has a leg up in these two areas. She can't die, and she knows about how to manipulate things to put things at her advantage. yeah, I think I would,

Zinzi Brookbree 47:03

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 47:05

with those, both of those components, I don't think I would be there quite as quick as she was, but maybe I would, maybe I would, uh, get there. I think one of the things that happened was meeting, I'm so bad I can't remember anybody's name right now. But meeting the woman whose daughter gets taken and she, by Hreban, and, Galiene yeah. So I think she was one of her fav- Maggie's favorite characters, and she felt so mad about what happened to her and her storyline. And I think meeting her right at the beginning really galvanized that for her really made her be like, "Hey, I am-" This isn't okay. These are now real people to me, and I don't-- gonna change it if I can. And so I think if maybe, I was dumped into a fantasy world and didn't actually engage with any of the... Like, it's a little different. It becomes more personal because that's like, it feels like a character, a person you know, even though you don't, right?

Zinzi Brookbree 48:02

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 48:02

moreover, she has an idea of what's going to happen, as opposed to if, if I were just dropped into a fantasy world, I wouldn't know what was gonna happen. I would aim for security and my own best interest, and if I could help, I might help just in regular life. But in this case, she does have future knowledge, and so why wouldn't she? Except for the fact that it puts her in more danger, but she discovers early on that she can die, but she comes back to life, right? She, she cannot stay dead. so I feel like that eliminates some element of risk, even if she doesn't know how many, how many deaths she gets or, what kinds of deaths are her limit or anything like that, and that's just not something she's gonna figure out unless, you know, she hits the one where she doesn't come back from

Zinzi Brookbree 48:47

There's also, like we keep going back to there's an element that Maggie is supposed to represent, us as the, as the reader, as the normal person, and I think this plays also a bit into the fantasy of even if real life we might be a coward, but maybe if we were in that situation, we could do something We could make a difference. We could, you know, like it plays into that. It's a extra layer of, fantasy. H- also, Like, Maggie is so smart with her. She makes some stupid decisions, but also she is doing her best to be very strategic on a level that I don't think I could do, and I'm very impressed by the writers. particularly 'cause I- having watched their interview, like they talk about they are trying to write characters who are smarter than them, and they have to work really hard at it to make sure that they come across that way. And I'm really enjoying, getting to read about, characters who are this level of intelligent and strategic about the decisions that they're making. And it's not all like, "Oh, but my emotion..." Like they're not... Maggie is a, is a strategic, thoughtful, logical person. She's not doing things just driven on p- pure emotion. and she's not being

Sage Moreaux 50:00

And

Zinzi Brookbree 50:00

reactionary. She has tons and tons of agency at her disposal, and I really enjoy that as a reader

Sage Moreaux 50:10

I would say that the taking away of the potential of d- of permanent death would make a huge difference in the amount of risk that I would be willing to take on. it's like, yeah, I would be prioritize my own safety, but if after I learned that I could die and come back, like obviously that sucks and it's painful, but if I can others without really a risk to my own safety, that's a, that's a big difference, right? 'Cause I think a lot of times people are cowards because of fear of pain and death, right? Or fear of the loved ones being hurt, and that's something with this found family that she's taking on, she might not be able to die, but everyone in her household certainly can, and she talks about that. And so now all of a sudden she has these people to protect, so she has to be even more clever not just, you know, she can walk out, reborn or whatever, but cannot. And so that adds a level of seriousness to the decisions that she makes moving forward.

Katherine Suzette 51:11

Agreed.

Zinzi Brookbree 51:12

Yeah, that was even one of the lines that she uses when she's arguing it with, Reynald. It's, "What if you die? What if Clover dies? You won't come back to life like I do."

Sage Moreaux 51:21

Totally.

Zinzi Brookbree 51:23

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 51:23

So I have a couple of predictions.

Zinzi Brookbree 51:25

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 51:26

I give my predictions? All

Zinzi Brookbree 51:27

Let's do it

Sage Moreaux 51:28

I loved how you did cl- Katherine's prediction counter, and I would love to do that in one of our end episodes where we like go back through all of our early predictions and

Zinzi Brookbree 51:39

You know, at

Sage Moreaux 51:39

see

Zinzi Brookbree 51:39

pajama party at the end of the season and see who's, see who's right, see who wins

Sage Moreaux 51:45

Yeah. Okay. So, it's page 87. the very end of chapter t- nine, and she's looking through the book of, Derog's book of like

Zinzi Brookbree 51:58

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 51:59

of how everyone's like a puppy or what, like it's so awful. But she is talking about Clover, and it says, Puppy, 17 weeks, trained as LM by KR. Not intact, damaged, extremely poor condition, recommend disposal." So I'm assuming that not intact means she's not virgin, which is just like, that's what I was kind of saying earlier about how awful, how they're, like clearly these awful things have happened to these kids, but

Zinzi Brookbree 52:23

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 52:23

not, they're just kind of like referred to, they're not spelled out in gory detail, which I appreciated. But I'm gonna guess that LM by KR, so I think LM means ladies maid,

Zinzi Brookbree 52:35

Okay

Sage Moreaux 52:35

it makes me wonder who KR is. And I wish that there, all along I've been like, man, I really wish, 'cause I'm bad at keeping character names straight, really wish there was a list of characters, and I also understand that that would kind of maybe ruin some of the, surprises that come out or whatever. So I get why

Zinzi Brookbree 52:56

But when I do my notes, every time a name comes up, I'm highlighting because even if it's something that doesn't come up in this book, I'm like, "But it's a character that's been mentioned. Are we gonna see them in book three? Are we gonna see them in book two," right? Like, just because somebody is, a name is mentioned here once and it gets thrown away, it's still information that may come up later. So like, I've got all of these names and, like, what Maggie says about them in my notes saved for later

Sage Moreaux 53:24

I even went to the very back to make sure, which I hate doing 'cause I don't wanna accidentally read the ending. I never look in the back of books,

Zinzi Brookbree 53:31

Yeah

Sage Moreaux 53:31

read Sword of Kaigen, I was like taking heavy notes of all of the characters and the terminology, and then there was a full glossary at the back, and I was like kicking myself by the time I realized that. So I did peek and make sure that there wasn't a character list at the back, there's not. but yeah, so that was-- So, but obviously if there was, I'd be looking for whose initials are KR. Now it could be not an individual, it could also be some sort of like group or whatever, but I assumed KR was a character in the book, and that's who Clover belonged to before she was brutalized and left as a slave. just gonna say that this is my bravery coming through, so maybe I would be one of these brave badasses if I was thrown into this world because I normally don't like to be wrong or do something where people can later say, "Ha ha, you were wrong," and I'm being very bold and putting myself out there with my predictions that might

Zinzi Brookbree 54:27

appreciate you so much, that you're following the rules, that you're giving me predictions, that you're willing to be wrong, and it's... 'Cause here's the thing, though, right? Like, at any point that somebody reads this, they're also gonna be making internal predictions. They're also gonna be forming their own theories, whether or not they pan out. It's just you're being courageous in that you're willing to put it in a public forum here on the podcast, right? But,

Katherine Suzette 54:51

Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 54:51

something that everyone who reads the book is still doing in some, some level, in some way, and so that's part of the enjoyment of getting to see you do it publicly, because it brings back those moments of like, "Oh yeah, I had these theories too, and, and look about how, you know, we're wrong or we're right, and I'm with you." Like, that's just such a, such a fun way to engage together. So kudos to you, Sage. It's appreciated

Sage Moreaux 55:20

Thank you. That makes it worth it. I have one more, and it's just, it's a line, and Maggie's thinking about her human life, Earth life. She says, I graduated, went to college, grew up, and learned that life wasn't always fair." Oh, because, oh, she was talking about reading the books also. "There was no third book, no resolution, no matter how many times you read, reread or how hard you wished for it. It gnawed at me. I just couldn't let it go." And then I was like, well, maybe this is the story of her making the resolution. I mean, I think it kind of obviously is, but then how much does she change what's happening, and like, will the third book be written based on what her actions are? That's not exactly a prediction as much as it is a musing about that.

Zinzi Brookbree 56:05

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 56:06

think that could all be a whole conversation.

Katherine Suzette 56:08

We may not know until our book

Sage Moreaux 56:10

We'll book three.

Katherine Suzette 56:11

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 56:12

exactly.

Katherine Suzette 56:13

I think that, another thing that we won't see maybe in this book, but in like book two or three, depending on how long Reynald lives, is that his son, we do confirm that his son and that he is a future seer, and I think that he has an element in the book, a farseer who, wherein he actually has a bit of a role to play, a little bit of agency in the story. Like, I don't think we show up and he's dead. I think that we show up and he has some kind of impact. I don't know if he lives beyond that or not, but, I think it would be very interesting for this character to come back, to actually have a, a s- a small role in the story to play. I also

Zinzi Brookbree 56:54

for clarity, Mateo is Reynald's son, and his ability is farseeing. It's a rare ability, and that's part of why he was targeted. And, that ability... And this isn't spoilers 'cause this is, Maggie lays this out, right, with her knowledge from the book series, and that what he can see, he can't see the future. He can see

Katherine Suzette 57:15

distance,

Zinzi Brookbree 57:16

presently happening at that specific moment.

Katherine Suzette 57:19

Oh

Zinzi Brookbree 57:21

He could get a farseer vision of, Maggie having a conversation with Reynald. Like, he would only get the part of the conversation, that was happening in that exact moment for as long as that vision lasted, but he wouldn't know what happens next, and he wouldn't know what had come before. the way that it's described is that for him, he can see into the moment and kinda look around. If he can go into, a, a general's tent, and there's a map on the table that shows, like, where their troops are stationed, like, he would be able to see that information and look at that regardless of what conversation was happening in the background, whether it was important or unimportant, or if it was just an empty room, right? Like, there isn't, at this point, further knowledge about, like, how his ability works other than it's... What he's seeing is always gonna line up with the present moment

Katherine Suzette 58:22

I love it. Andrews is

Sage Moreaux 58:24

That's pretty cool.

Katherine Suzette 58:25

these unique abilities that she

Sage Moreaux 58:28

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette 58:32

There are two authors.

Zinzi Brookbree 58:34

As opposed to, so, sorry, I just wanna also comment that, versus Maggie's knowledge of future and future events and people's secrets, right? Between those two, she's technically, I would consider, the more powerful character at the given moment because she knows past, present, and future for certain characters as far as what's gonna play out for them, right? She's got a broader amount of knowledge. And so her secrets of that knowledge getting to any of the, to the eight families, to the Knights of the Redeemer, really, for Reynald to know as much as he does, for Clover to know, for Kaiden to know, she is already at risk with all of them knowing as much as they do about her knowledge

Katherine Suzette 59:20

But she's also built, trust with the characters, so, they want to protect her because she protected them too, which really appreciate. I wanna touch base on the author again. I predict that the guy in the tavern who called that, the upstart, a frog, I think that that's the author.

Zinzi Brookbree 59:40

currently predicting that, Golden Eyes in the Garden is Adrienne LaTour. That's the name of the author

Katherine Suzette 59:47

Yes. Yeah, I mean, we'll, we'll see what happens. I, I... That character's obviously

Zinzi Brookbree 59:53

One of our police

Katherine Suzette 59:53

back. Yeah, that character has a, has a, an impact on the story, is written in such a way that that character, I believe, will come back at minimum, at maximum I think that they are the author. and then I also have another prediction that we did not discuss in the last episode, but, essentially we didn't talk about the Stalkas.

Sage Moreaux 1:00:14

Oh, yeah.

Katherine Suzette 1:00:15

the Stelka, the one with the half-moon, it's gotta come back,

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:18

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 1:00:19

and I think

Zinzi Brookbree 1:00:20

You think it's coming back?

Katherine Suzette 1:00:22

I do, and I think it'll have a role to play, as almost like a familiar kind of creature. I suppose we shall see, but that is my, my hope in a way too. I mean, it could just be that the character that Maggie recognized the Stelka due to the mark, so it's clearly a repeat offender. I think that for it to be important enough to be discussed like that, it's gotta come back and have more impact on the story. I think that the Stelka likes her, and does something in the plot to help her or save her or help push the plot along in a, in a hopefully positive way for Ma- Maggie

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:01

Okay.

Sage Moreaux 1:01:03

Agree.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:03

some good theories and predictions, guys.

Sage Moreaux 1:01:05

I wanted to say that if you are listening and you have predictions or theories that we did not talk about, throw them into the comments, as long as they are not spoilers 'cause you've read ahead. But if you have predictions up through chapter 10, throw them in the comments, let us know.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:21

Be brave like Sage, put them in the public forum. But no spoilers, please.

Sage Moreaux 1:01:27

Please, please.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01:28

Sage Is trying to be really good, and Katherine's sort of trying to be good, and I wanna encourage that. your homework for this next episode is to read chapters 11 through 14. That is read to the end of 14. That's what we'll be covering in our next episode. I know it's only three chapters, but bear with us. Outside of this podcast, you can find us at Book Dragon Ink, as well as you can come write with me on my weekly Zoom write-ins with Write With Me Zinzi Bree on Substack. We'd love for you to check those out. The links are in the show notes. If you just like our book stuff here on the pod, you can check out our podcast Substack and support us directly. Thank you to our subscriber Ria Nancoo for supporting us. another way you can support us is to leave a review. It helps little indie podcasts like us get noticed. thank you so much for tuning in, and as Maggie and Reynald say, "Are you in or are you out?" In or out. All

Katherine Suzette 1:02:26

In

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:28

that's it for this one

Sage Moreaux 1:02:30

All in.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02:32

See you next time. Thank you so much for listening

Katherine Suzette 1:02:35

Bye everyone