Naked, In a Ditch - Chapters 1-5 - This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me - Read Along

Zinzi Bree, Sage, and Katherine begin a spoiler-free read-along of Ilona Andrews’ This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me, covering chapters 1–5. They recap Maggie being isekai’d into Kair Toren, stealing coins, getting murdered, and reviving, then navigating the Garden of Soft Blossoms, learning language and social classes, meeting Galiene, encountering villain Ulmar Hreban, and making a risky information-for-payment deal with Solentine Degarra of the Shears. The hosts discuss the first-person exposition and worldbuilding, Maggie’s intentionally vague, relatable description, the stakes of her repeated deaths, and isekai/portal fantasy tropes, plus early predictions and favorite moments like Maggie finally getting a bath and shoes.

Podcast links:

Book Dragon Banter Substack - https://bookdragonbanter.substack.com/

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

BDB Fable Fantasy Focused Book Club: https://fable.co/club/diverse-fantasy-with-zinzi-bree-271215645134?referralID=f9KdWh3wtd

Other links:

Book Dragon Ink Online Writing Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats

Write With Me, Zinzi Bree - Substack: https://writewithmezinzibree.substack.com/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Book Dragon Ink: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Our Summer Read-Along: This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me (Bookshop.org affiliate link): 

https://bookshop.org/p/books/this-kingdom-will-not-kill-me-ilona-andrews/f544c8f1dba95f55?ean=9781250377265&next=t&aid=124342&listref=book-dragon-book-club-reads

00:00 Welcome and Spoiler Rules

01:24 Sponsor and Chapter Recap

06:23 Name Jokes and Setup

06:58 Opening Hook Discussion

12:56 Meet Maggie the Heroine

16:24 Exploring Kair Toren

22:43 Isekai Explained

32:15 Chekhov Guns and Predictions

37:35 Favorites and Next Reading

39:34 Outro and Homework

Transcript

Zinzi Brookbree 0:02

Welcome to Book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring authors talk all things books. We're fantasy-focused but not exclusive. Join Sage, Katherine, and me, I'm Zinzi Bree, as we read This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me by Ilona Andrews. Read or reread along with us. We're so glad you're here. Now's a great time to hit the subscribe button so you don't miss the next episode. We will be keeping spoilers out of the read-along as we're saving them for our mini season wrap-up pajama party at the end of all of these recordings. have already read the book multiple times, so we're testing Sage and Katherine's self-control to not read ahead yet with this one.

Katherine Suzette 0:39

Already fucked it up.

Sage Moreaux 0:41

was really hard, but luckily I was just reading it l- like to my chapters last night, so it was like, "Okay, I just need to go to bed. Don't read all night."

Katherine Suzette 0:49

really well yesterday rereading this morning and I couldn't stop. I, I was just enjoying it, and then I was like, "Wait a second, I didn't hear this yesterday." And then I looked and I was like, "Oh,

Sage Moreaux 1:00

No spoilers.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:01

So

Sage Moreaux 1:01

it for me.

Zinzi Brookbree 1:02

yep, yep, you gotta, you, you gotta hold onto it. Keep the spoilers inside. that said, uh, Katherine already swore, but we're an explicit podcast, so we can give our honest, unfiltered opinions.

Sage Moreaux 1:20

little bit of impetus so fingers

Zinzi Brookbree 1:22

Thank you. Next up is our chapter summary sponsored by Book Dragon, Ink, our company, where we host monthly themed writing retreats online with workshops, access to book coaches, and writing sprints, and community. You can check out our upcoming retreats with the link in the show notes. On to the summary. This episode is our kickoff, and we are covering chapters one through five, where Maggie gets dumped in a ditch in the city of Kair Toren, naked, as one does when you're isekaied. She decides to use her knowledge about the book world she finds herself in to steal from an asshole, and surprise, gets murdered by him, in chapter one. That's right, Maggie dies. End of book. Oh, wait, it's, like, 400 pages more? Let's see what happens. this series is called Maggie the Undying. I guess we'll keep reading.

Sage Moreaux 2:09

Maggie wakes up on a riverbank naked again with the bag of coins she stole finds a corpse and steals his cloak before an oozing monster eats the corpse. Understandably Maggie runs away but not before saving the cat I mean fox otter creature who had tried to eat her in her sleep in the first chapter

Zinzi Brookbree 2:28

From there Maggie heads to the only place that will take her coin while

Sage Moreaux 2:32

naked and not slit her throat on the way she crosses paths with the bad boy himself the sleepless duke Everard vi Selva He gives her some coins in passing and Maggie fangirls because what's a mortal to do in the face of such shadow daddy energy After collecting herself she hightails it to the Garden of Soft Blossoms. Once there Maggie sees her first casual use of magic as glowing butterflies swarm her after the end of a stage performance She learns she can not only understand Rellsian but speaks it and that she's in fact in her own body and didn't get swapped with someone else. Also she finally gets a bath and she meets Galiene of Sosna a favorite supporting character in the original books with a very tragic ending that made Maggie scream at a book for the first time Galiene will let Maggie stay the night at the garden in honor of her god.

Zinzi Brookbree 3:24

Next, we learn about plumbing, and yes, toilets and butt paper can exist in a medieval setting. We learn lord and lady means land and nobility, sir and dame mean a knight, and ter and tress are the ordinary middle class, that Maggie is now dressed as. Also, thank goodness she got some clothes. All the women braid their hair or something, and Maggie w- goes back to the main rooms since the garden is expensive, and she'll probably never be able to afford it again. Here, she sees the loudest-dressed man in the city, the villain himself from the books, Omar Herba- Her- Herberberberberber. Ulmar Hreban. His name is hard to pronounce. the very person who set Kair Toren aflame literally. But more importantly at this moment to Maggie, he will eventually steal Galiene's daughter, use her to blackmail Galiene, and torture them until he moves up in the world and decides to kill them both. Maggie's thoughts are broken into by a handsome stranger Who mocks Hreban without fear of repercussions and takes an interest in Maggie. He is called away before he can say more, Maggie finally gets some sleep. In the morning, Maggie reviews her options, counts her money, and thinks about how magic works in this world. Realizing no one is trustworthy and her only power is her knowledge, she resolves to become an independent power broker, keeping her secrets to herself and changing as little as possible to keep her knowledge valuable. Then Maggie looks at Galiene and immediately gives her a warning to save her daughter and herself from Hreban's clutches, using a secret that Galiene can check so she'll take Maggie seriously. Finally, chapter five, she's decided her first task is to secure a place to live, and without identification of some kind, Maggie is pretty much screwed out of most options. While searching, Maggie is warned away from a street for good reason. There's a dead man with a sign that says, "I stole from Baron Hreban." Hreban. I'm gonna screw up his name every time. With city guards paid to watch over the scene.

Katherine Suzette 5:15

So angry and disgusted by Hreban tactics, Maggie heads to the Three Moons where she uses her secret knowledge from the books to gain access to the wine cellar. And Saltine, Solentine, Solentine Degarra... I did listen to the audio, but just don't test me too far. I, I will fail the test. Solentine Degarra, who is movie star handsome, smart, witty, and the head of the Shares, a crime syndicate that specializes in espionage, sabotage, and rumors. And then when Solentine got involved, he added informants, thievery, and assassins to the list. So he is a bastard son of a margrave, and is one of Maggie's favorite characters, except that it kinda turns out he's not really a character, and Maggie could end up dying here in this wine cellar again, or on the stairs as the case may be. And she makes a deal with Solentine in the end, using her information from the books to speed up an event that was going to happen anyways. And she tells him that she will be back in one week time for payment. And when the deal is made, she leaves knowing she will be followed. And she heads into a fabric shop and says that she's gonna go use the back door, but instead she uses a little bit of sneaky trickery to get rid of her tail, and she slips away.

Zinzi Brookbree 6:23

And that's it for chapters one through five. Think we covered it.

Sage Moreaux 6:27

I think

Zinzi Brookbree 6:29

we'll just start using other names. Let's see, Hreban could be Haban- Habanero one, at one point. So Habanero, we'll find some other H words for his name when we

Katherine Suzette 6:39

was...

Zinzi Brookbree 6:39

pronounce it.

Katherine Suzette 6:40

Sweet.

Sage Moreaux 6:40

pants

Katherine Suzette 6:41

call Sol- Solentine, Saltine, like saltine crackers, So

Zinzi Brookbree 6:45

Solentine? Uh, yeah.

Sage Moreaux 6:48

that I okay

Katherine Suzette 6:50

a

Sage Moreaux 6:50

I love that name That was my favorite name of the whole

Zinzi Brookbree 6:53

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux 6:54

five chapters

Zinzi Brookbree 6:55

That you've seen so far?

Sage Moreaux 6:56

Chef's kiss yes

Katherine Suzette 6:57

beautiful,

Zinzi Brookbree 6:58

Moving into our first key moment, our opening hook. This story is told in the first person, of Maggie. There's lots of information, and I wanted to know immediately for you guys, was getting all that information, because she's now been dumped into this world, she's got memories from the previous book version that she's constantly giving the reader to inform them of her own knowledge, even if it's different from what's actually happening in front of her. Did you guys find that a turn-off, or did you find that, like, a way to ground you into the story and the, world?

Katherine Suzette 7:32

I found it totally natural because if I'd just been dropped into, slash for those who didn't pick up on it, isekai'd, which is where a reader falls into the world of the book or is, you know, murdered and wakes up there or falls asleep and wakes up there, whatever the case may be. When someone has been isekai'd into a story and becomes a character in it, they, they then have to really consider all of these elements through new filters. So it made a lot of sense for me to have that. It didn't feel like too much of an info dump, really. It didn't distract for me.

Sage Moreaux 8:05

I thought the author did a great job because it started with this thing with her with Maggie having this rock and like being obsessed with her rock and we didn't know what that was about and I you know Okay so I'm gonna just say I didn't all that I read about this book was what's on the cover which is the title and whatever Zinzi said Like I didn't even read the inside bit where it says what happens to her so I had no idea I guess I knew it was a portal fantasy b based on or it's like I based on our conversation But I didn't If I had read the inside flap I kind of would've known pretty much everything I still haven't read it Well I read a little bit of it after reading the chapters So I didn't know what was happening at all and even—well I'll get into

Zinzi Brookbree 8:50

I'm very blind.

Sage Moreaux 8:51

I thought like it it centered you on like her being there dirty and like basically naked and like surviving as a beggar with this rock and you're like Okay what's going on with the rock So then it dropped into started to explain what was happening and how her view of the tower with the like petals which is here on the front cover right

Zinzi Brookbree 9:11

Mage tower.

Sage Moreaux 9:13

yeah that was like the first hint that you got that she was in the book that she had read about before and then it turned into I wouldn't even call it info dump I would call it exposition because I thought it was

Zinzi Brookbree 9:23

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 9:23

By doing that hooking you into like what's happening with her and this rock and then kind of leading into like how she had gotten there I totally thought that she had amne I I don't know I was like Oh she has amnesia and then I was like Oh no she d I don't think she

Zinzi Brookbree 9:38

funny.

Sage Moreaux 9:38

does have amnesia So I misread a little bit it'll be fun to go back and read it a second time and see keeps talking about her mom and her brother and like if you have amnesia you shouldn't yeah So then I figured it out and I was like Oh yeah obviously

Katherine Suzette 9:50

She had to figure things out, so we were kind of figuring it out along with her, as opposed to a character who is already living in this world and had been her whole life. She wouldn't have to figure out how much money she has, how much the coins are worth, or, all that kind of thing. But she, I mean, she is, because she read the books so much, she knew, like, general directions and some very general facts.

Sage Moreaux 10:14

Yeah and I liked how that allowed the reader to get a sense of the world since she already knew it without having to learn alongside the character occasionally she would like compare whatever was going on with something in the real world and that would occasionally like she's mentioned the Met Museum at one point

Zinzi Brookbree 10:35

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 10:35

me out of it a little bit But it makes perfect sense for her character that that's how Like if I was there that's probably what I would be doing is trying to like make analysis and co-com compare things so that I I could like center myself a little bit And I loved how um it kind of gave Cause I read a ton of like fantasy and romantasy where the characters are swearing and

Zinzi Brookbree 10:58

And

Sage Moreaux 11:00

language

Zinzi Brookbree 11:01

it

Sage Moreaux 11:01

this

Zinzi Brookbree 11:01

feels

Sage Moreaux 11:02

fantasy setting

Zinzi Brookbree 11:03

like they should have their own instead

Sage Moreaux 11:04

it

Zinzi Brookbree 11:04

of modern terms in there for sparing? Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 11:10

100 And so like this was great cause it was like you know it wasn't anachronistic It like dropped her in

Zinzi Brookbree 11:16

Just from these initial five chapters that you guys have read, if I hadn't been like, "We're absolutely doing this for the podcast, hold your horses, don't read it on your own," do you think you would have picked up the book and liked it so far,

Katherine Suzette 11:28

Definitely.

Sage Moreaux 11:29

Well clearly Katherine read ahead so she was enjoying

Zinzi Brookbree 11:34

We lost our self-control.

Sage Moreaux 11:36

going I think so too Like I I definitely if I wasn't holding my I would have kept reading if I wasn't like holding myself back I am not a huge cozy We've talked about this before I don't love cozy as much as you do Zinzi and this is like go and that like the the gruesome due to those shoulders chopped o arms chopped off I was like Yes

Zinzi Brookbree 11:57

Yeah, his hands were chopped off and then they were,

Sage Moreaux 12:00

love

Zinzi Brookbree 12:00

they were burned to seal the injuries so that he could just sit out there in the sun and die in misery, with nobody coming to help him. Hreban, is it?

Sage Moreaux 12:10

Of like the tracks of tears through the blood on his face and I was like And I actually thought that was a really great use of Maggie Like knowing that she's a human woman like me means that she's witnessing th like I never see I'm fortunate in this world that I don't see violence like

Zinzi Brookbree 12:28

Yeah,

Sage Moreaux 12:28

in my day-to-day

Zinzi Brookbree 12:29

in

Sage Moreaux 12:32

than like when I was reading say Game of Thrones and there's all this like super gruesome stuff but that's how it is in that world so you just get a little desensitized

Zinzi Brookbree 12:40

person,

Sage Moreaux 12:43

I loved I really liked that.

Zinzi Brookbree 12:44

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 12:45

if I

Zinzi Brookbree 12:45

mo-

Sage Moreaux 12:45

reading it for the podcast I would just read it not have to like think about it as much and analyze it and

Zinzi Brookbree 12:54

You could just enjoy it. Moving on to our next key moment, we have met our, our heroine, Maggie, which funnily enough, you don't... In these first five chapters, she doesn't tell anyone her name. You don't learn her name in text. You have to know it, like, going in from reading the back or reading the... Or, you know, knowing the title of the series, "Maggie the Undying." and it takes her until chapter three to, see her appearance and get an appearance description, which the only thing that the authors really give us solidly about her appearance is, a hair color, and later on they had to write for series continuity, they had to tell their, artists, "Hey, this is how else you should have her appear for, artwork in the, special editions of the book. Needed to have a, a cohesive look for that. So she's since developed more, but actually in the text, it's really just she's got brown hair. That's really the only thing that they solidly commented on. At least at this point, we don't know her eye color.

Sage Moreaux 13:52

They said she's pale

Zinzi Brookbree 13:53

Okay, pale.

Sage Moreaux 13:54

brown hair but that could be pale f because she's been on the street for days Like she could have any number of skin tones and still appear pale but I assumed it to mean kind of pale skin

Katherine Suzette 14:06

She's

Zinzi Brookbree 14:06

intentinally

Katherine Suzette 14:08

and relatable Um and I don't think that there was much commentary on her body or anything except that she just said that she-- it was her body relat- on the average everything side and hers. I think that that was a smart move by the author because it's just generally more relatable to people.

Zinzi Brookbree 14:26

So her being relatable is actually a very specific choice by, the writers, Maggie represents, fandom, and they wanted her to be a character that you could see yourself fitting into as a fan of the genre. so they were purposely trying to be vague as much as they felt they could, with her appearance, with certain aspects about her, so that you could do a little bit of self-insert as you're, as you're reading the story and think, "Okay, how would I survive? Um, what would I do differently?" Things like that. Um, the other thing that they mentioned is the inspiration for her appearance, was Belle and, Evelyn Rachel Re- Rachel Weisz from, like, The Mummy, which I really like the interpretation of Evelyn from The Mummy as being somewhat who Maggie is, mixed with Belle. in, in my head, that's kind of how she looks now

Sage Moreaux 15:24

I highlighted what the description because they call they say I really liked this they say that she is an pretty like a normal person and I

Zinzi Brookbree 15:34

Yes

Sage Moreaux 15:35

really appreciating that right Like not this super glam not so you know all the things that you might call out to be like so gorgeous And I yeah so that I was like that is a way to you know I think most people could consider themselves looking like a normal person So I I like that that distinction

Katherine Suzette 15:53

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 15:53

Hmm

Katherine Suzette 15:54

I thought to myself when I read it, I was like, "Oh, thank goodness." I, I like this, but also I'm getting a little bit tired of it depending on the book, when the female character is that everybody, all the women wanna be like, and we want to kind of embody and self-insert with the character, right? There-- She wasn't a striking beauty. there wasn't, like, a lot of, like, contrasting elements that were described. So I, I felt like that was a smart move. And the self-insert opportunity there I felt was really good.

Zinzi Brookbree 16:24

Moving on to our next key moment, what do you guys think of Kair Toren the world that we've been presented with so far? I'm just grateful there's a fantastic map that like, at the, at the beginning of the book. The

Sage Moreaux 16:37

Not a

Zinzi Brookbree 16:38

devil.

Sage Moreaux 16:38

of an impression from it Um it could be because I'm occasionally prone to skipping not skipping but like fast reading over description if it's not really buried with action so or like entwined with the action I will sometimes skip over some of the things So but I got What I really liked was when she would describe like how long it took her to get from place to place Thought that was a great detail that isn't often talked about Like she had to hoof it across the city to get to all these different places and she was ti I mean she was obviously underfed and underslept and everything but she and murdered and then resurrected And

Zinzi Brookbree 17:16

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 17:16

I just talk about that for a minute So okay when I went into it this kingdom will not kill me I thought was like a vow Like I'm gonna survive this Like I said I knew it was a portal fantasy and that was kind of it and I was like I will

Zinzi Brookbree 17:29

Like the dungeon crawler collar. It won't break me, right?

Sage Moreaux 17:33

yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 17:33

you're thinking?

Sage Moreaux 17:34

Yes

Zinzi Brookbree 17:35

It won't break me.

Sage Moreaux 17:36

she dies at the end of chapter one and I was like Wait what? My first thought was either she's healing herself or she it's like a Groundhog Day and it's gonna be like the same day over and over

Zinzi Brookbree 17:45

Oh, you thought it was gonna be a time loop.

Sage Moreaux 17:48

I was really glad it wasn't Because I didn't read the flap In the flap it says and then I was like Oh yeah Maggie the Undying And then I was like Oh yeah This Kingdom Will Not Kill Me is almost like whining about all the like all the And then she's talking about all her murders and everything or all the ways that she can imagine dying and having to come back and it made it Yeah So

Zinzi Brookbree 18:09

and that it's l- it's literally worse for her, dying isn't the problem, it's all the ways that she can be tortured. 'Cause she feels it all, right? Like, she feels that she gets stabbed multiltl- multiple times. She feels when her throat gets cut, like there's the, there's the visual of the spray from her throat on, Lecke, the asshole's face, when he slits her throat, right? And as they're struggling for the bag before she throws herself off of the bridge into the water, which just, like, is such a nice fuck you to him Like, "I'm taking the gold. You killed me, but at least I get this," right?

Katherine Suzette 18:42

Yes.

Zinzi Brookbree 18:42

Oh.

Katherine Suzette 18:43

so in that first chapter before she's murdered, is it chapter one or chapter two after she's murdered? I'm not sure I remember.

Zinzi Brookbree 18:49

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 18:49

she says, like, she, she's talking about surviving. She wants to survive. She's been, you know, starving on the street for a few days,

Zinzi Brookbree 18:56

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 19:00

blanket, to put her arms into for quick escape as needed. and th- and actually I thought that was a great choice, too. Like, the author didn't go into those first moments and first days. It was just fact that it had happened. The author kinda opens up a hours or whatever before she gets murdered the first time, and She says at some point Kair Toren will not kill me Like "I won't let Kair Toren, the, the place,

Sage Moreaux 19:24

Gotcha

Katherine Suzette 19:29

will not kill me,' instead of this kingdom?" And then I was like, "Oh yeah, 'cause Kair Toren- Who's gonna remember that unless it blows up really big, like Game of Thrones style, and we're all like, yeah, I totally...' Actually, I don't. I don't remember the names of the cities in the Game of Thrones, so I take it back." But I felt like it was really good to just kinda go with generic, "This kingdom will not kill me." a lot catchier and descriptive without being over-descriptive. I actually thought that maybe she was just injured or something, and so I was expecting her to, like, have to get healed or something.

Zinzi Brookbree 19:56

Nope. I do have to say something that I really love about this, is that for the reader, right? Like, I'm a cozy fantasy reader. I wanna know my characters are gonna be safe. And so now I know, yes, Maggie can die. Yes, she can die horribly, but she's gonna come back. But at the same time, I don't know, right, like does she have nine lives? Is she gonna run out of them? Is there a certain way if her whole body is burned up in fire, is she gonna come back from that, right? Like the author then explores by having her think about all these different ways that she could still die and it being permanent, that there being consequences. So it's both a... allows the reader to have some comfort in, like certain things won't kill her, and I can relax, and this isn't gonna become a story where like she gets killed off and it becomes someone else's... Like, it's not gonna be a, uh, Allegiant, Divergent, uh, the Divergent series, right? Where a character, spoilers, um, dies and the point of view changes, right? We're not... That's, that's not gonna happen. I now can trust the author. Like, this point of view that this first book is in, that's who I get for this whole thing. I'm here for the ride. and yet, the, the other possible awful things that can happen to her still give her stakes for when she makes decisions that could put her in danger.

Sage Moreaux 21:16

Yeah I love that And I love the exploration of like I could die this way What would happen about this I was actually thinking a lot about Jumanji the movie series Jumanji where they have a limited amount of lives because it's a

Zinzi Brookbree 21:28

Oh, yeah.

Sage Moreaux 21:29

right And so and she because she wonders that like do I have a limited amount And in Jumanji they have marks so they know how many They figure out that they do have limited lives and that puts higher stakes So her not knowing at this point like assumption is that she is might die again maybe many times which I'm s kind of excited for

Zinzi Brookbree 21:49

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 21:51

um

Zinzi Brookbree 21:52

Sage. Tell us how you really feel.

Sage Moreaux 21:54

back Well because I like the action I know I like the action and the high stakes and the like tension like will you know knowing that she could die and will come back like then every time she's in danger the question will be for me is this one of the times where she'll die and then come back Or will it you know I'm assuming it will happen again but it might not till towards the end of the book We'll see but with Jumanji like you knew there was this many lives so you had to protect them For her not knowing kind of makes it even riskier

Zinzi Brookbree 22:22

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 22:24

it could just be that was the one time that she

Katherine Suzette 22:26

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 22:27

I have to not look at Zinzi when I make any kind of comments because she knows But

Zinzi Brookbree 22:33

I was try- I was trying real hard, I was like, "Don't, don't move any muscles, just give, like, a bland smile and nod your head and just, just gaze into the middle distance. No reveals here." I'm working on my poker face. But theme of this episode is, isekai'd. I've been isekai'd, and what does that mean? Isekai is the Japanese word for portal fantasy, although there are some differences that we see more in portal fantasy on the, from the Western world than we do from, the Asian stories. other notable Western portal fantasies include The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe and The Wizard of Oz. Like, those are classic, and those are technically portal fantasies. They've been around a long time. but as the genre developed in Japan, there are tropes and expectations that have come into those kind of stories, like how the main character ends up, in the new world in the first place, and what kind of person is usually the person who ends up in these new worlds. usually the kind of person that, ends up in these worlds in Japanese fiction is someone who is, like, an exhausted office worker. Like, sometimes they just die at their desks from overwork, There's a little bit of a balance that is thought of in, for those stories out of Japanese culture where, because they had such an awful life the first time around, then whatever being or god or whatever it is is benevolent enough that in their next life, that they're gonna have a cheat. In text, Maggie does a great job of summing up the usual isekai story for those who are unfamiliar. They're born summoned or they take over a body in this new world, with their real-world memories intact, which gives them an advantage in whatever new, usually medieval, world that they've ended up in, and they're given magic powers that often feel like a cheat as a way to balance out having an awful life experience before. Also in isekai, unlike Western portal fantasy, there's rarely a way home. something else to consider is that isekai stories are often slice-of-life stories, where the exhausted worker gets to relax and live a slower-paced life. Kair Toren is not that kind of place. I don't think we're seeing slice of life, "Oh, we're just gonna, oh, enjoy and have a great time over here. The scales have balanced," right? Doesn't feel like that kind of story. So we're already, even though we're taking the isekai portal fantasy modern world character into this fantasy world that's medieval-ish, it is in no way going to be a fun, relaxing time for our main character.

Sage Moreaux 25:00

It's kind of the opposite though Like she said that she had this really cozy lovely life that wasn't like exciting in any way but it it wasn't like the most amazing life but it wasn't bad and she was really happy there with her family and her apartment

Zinzi Brookbree 25:14

Yep.

Sage Moreaux 25:14

reading And so this is like the opposite of that

Zinzi Brookbree 25:16

So this was also an in- an intentional choice by the authors in that they wanted Maggie to have a normal life. They did not want her to come into the story with her own tragic backstory, 'cause it's not, it's not needed. There's, there's tragic backstories galore in Kair Toren. And not every reader, because Maggie is this placeholder for readers like us, have had a tragic life or backstory. So it was part of the choice to make her as much of a reader insert, represent fandom, represent the normal person who enjoys fantasy books as they could

Katherine Suzette 25:57

I like that Maggie also uses her knowledge, of the world, not just for her survival, but also for her arrangements, or, or to, to find an income. I felt like that was very smart. The way that she considered her, finances was, good. It wasn't like, "Let's just survive," and, "Oh no, there's a plot to kill the king. Let's figure it out and go stop it." it's more like- I need money.

Zinzi Brookbree 26:25

I gotta feed myself. I need a roof over my house. Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 26:30

have shoes. Yeah. So, I appreciated

Zinzi Brookbree 26:34

on the street.

Katherine Suzette 26:34

Right, it wasn't just like drop me in, It also-- A lot of isekai stories, like there's, there's a swap, and the character from the book goes into the other life, then sometimes, or a lot of the time, the character from our world, gets dropped into a book as one of the main characters, and they have to figure out if they're going to play the script as it's written going to change it according to their desires. And one of the tropes that's really popular is either the, the females are dropped into the main romantic interest's body they become the villainess, and it's usually the one that like created all this conflict and hardship for the main character. So they get an opportunity to either be the villain or to rewrite the villain's script and be essentially a better human and live a potentially better life and like maybe not get murdered by everybody else in the book kind of a thing. so like those, those are the, my familiarity with, current isekais that I've read or been exposed to.

Zinzi Brookbree 27:33

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux 27:33

I think my most like I've read a bunch of books that are more like Western portal fantasy all kinds but I'm thinking specifically about books where the character ends up in a book that they've read and there's a number of them that I've read but my favorite is The Magicians which I love this series so much

Zinzi Brookbree 27:50

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 27:51

The Magicians is really different because the main character these childhood books that he loved that was kind of like Narnia the land like was reminiscent of Narnia so really different than like this world that Maggie finds herself in which m way more says Game of Thrones to me than Narnia but the idea that you you are this fan of these books right You love them so much and to be able to be in that world and when in The Magicians when the main character ends up in that world it's not as idealistic as he expects and it doesn't happen until much much later in the book He has like a whole thing that happens with magic school and whatnot before that But with Maggie she's like we we start the book and she's there right So it's it's so not idealistic either and it's really cool to like imagine yourself what books do you love and how would it actually be Like I love The Hunger Games Do I wanna find myself in The Hunger Games

Zinzi Brookbree 28:47

Nope.

Sage Moreaux 28:48

and I know like a lot of books that I I read the author clearly loves books also and they write their main characters as loving books and there'll be stacks of books everywhere and this like is a step further with the love of story of a story about the main character who loves a book so much and finds themselves in it I think it's just it's like so charming

Katherine Suzette 29:08

Yeah. Well, and on that note, we did see a little bit about what she loves about this world and in these books as well. I mean, we touched on, like, the dark bits that were like, oh, so it's, it's a darker fantasy or it has darker elements in it. But, we also see some of the beauty of the magic and the world that she fell in love with, the things that, like, made her feel cozy and warm on the inside that she was really excited to So that was really awesome as well.

Zinzi Brookbree 29:35

Uh, I have this line pulled up that, relates to that, which is, "There is no safety in Kair Toren. It was the kind of place you visit only from the comfort of your home while wrapped in a blanket and sipping some hot cocoa for courage. You dove into it, let it thrill you, and crush your emotions, and then surfaced, grateful to be back in your own little corner of existence." That's just, like, such a perfect way of like, yes, that is the fantasy reader experience, right? You just, for the most part, unless you're like, "I'm gonna go live in Hobbiton," you just want to visit, let it, you know, thrill you, crush you, um, wring you dry if it's something that makes you cry. But then at the end of it, you wanna come back to the comfort of your own home, and your own blanket, and your own kitchen, and your air conditioning

Katherine Suzette 30:21

also like that she could be surprised by the characters too. Like, she'd read these books over and over and over again, and yet, like,

Zinzi Brookbree 30:29

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 30:30

the character, Saltine, whatever his actual name is, Solentine, like it's not a character that was actually-- like, had page time. He was just referred to in all of that.

Zinzi Brookbree 30:42

so Solentine is... And she says this in text, Solentine is one of the points of view that she has read from, and he has some of the most extensive page time point of view-wise. So, like, she is very familiar with

Katherine Suzette 30:55

That's...

Zinzi Brookbree 30:55

version of him. even though now as a living, breathing person in front of her, that's, that's different, right? Who you imagine in your head when you're reading a book is not gonna be the same as, oh, now you're a whole person. I didn't know you had

Katherine Suzette 31:11

it.

Zinzi Brookbree 31:16

That's... It wasn't referenced in the book. How dare you have a mole on your elbow? 'Cause you're not the person that I imagined in my head, right? Like, there's, there's a little bit of her facing that as she meets these different characters, that she's only had descriptions of and had her own versions of what that looked like. 'Cause like, even, you know, Sage mentions beginning where the introduction of she thought the mage tower looked one way, and here it is in person, and one, it's even more impressive, but also it's not quite what she imagined it to be.

Katherine Suzette 31:47

like, the humans too, there's one guy that, the, the sleepless duke, I, I guess, or whatever his name is, and he surprises her by being kind to her, and he's the first person to show her any kindness, whereas in the books that she'd read, he was not known for any version of kindness at all.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:04

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 32:05

he was a, um, daunting, um, impressive character,

Zinzi Brookbree 32:09

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 32:10

not one that she expected to be kind to her, and as the first person to be kind to her too, I mean, obviously. Like, the, the authors are setting up multiple Chekhov's guns here Um,

Zinzi Brookbree 32:19

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette 32:20

like, the fact that she won't die, this sleepless duke, Saltine, and so many other, like, planted

Zinzi Brookbree 32:26

Every time I say his name.

Katherine Suzette 32:27

see when those

Zinzi Brookbree 32:29

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette 32:29

pulled,

Zinzi Brookbree 32:30

All

Katherine Suzette 32:30

um, so to speak, because, um, that, that's the anticipation that keeps me, like, going.

Zinzi Brookbree 32:35

right,

Katherine Suzette 32:37

Can I talk about my suspicions yet?

Zinzi Brookbree 32:39

let's move

Sage Moreaux 32:40

ready to do that too

Zinzi Brookbree 32:41

into

Sage Moreaux 32:44

But you're only through chapter five Katherine You cannot spoil with chapter

Zinzi Brookbree 32:49

can't say anything that's from

Sage Moreaux 32:51

Has to be

Zinzi Brookbree 32:51

chapter six.

Sage Moreaux 32:52

Chapter five is when she leaves the fabric store or whatever and disappears into the streets Okay

Katherine Suzette 32:59

awesome. Then, um, good thing for these summaries keeping me on track here. Thank you, Zinzi, for that Um, so I know what happens and where things stopped, I can stop, and you can just, like, shush me if need be. but I have this suspicion that at least one of those guns is gonna get pulled really early on, and, like, I mean, the figurative Chekhov's gun, which in the writing world is, like, you, you use an element in the book, you plant it early on to be used later, theory is that, everything that gets page time is important and relevant. Otherwise, you're kinda wasting your m- your reader's mind, like, their, their time and attention, cause you're cluttering up their brain with gun is like you walk into a room, and there's a gun on the wall. Therefore, if you have commented on it and taken up that much effort to plant it, plant the seed, you've gotta use it. And I think that this Maggie dying is going to happen pretty early on. Like, I don't think that the authors are going to wait a whole lot, and build

Zinzi Brookbree 34:01

mean before the next time she dies?

Katherine Suzette 34:03

Yeah, I think it won't be more than a few chapters.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:06

Okay.

Katherine Suzette 34:07

But I haven't, I haven't read far enough to, to have any validity on this one way or another. just have a suspicion or- Or maybe she like almost

Zinzi Brookbree 34:17

got the ability that the... frequent occurrence considering she's the undying okay.

Katherine Suzette 34:22

if it happens frequently, but I definitely know there go... That, that important characters like the ones already mentioned will figure it out relatively quickly. She goes by Maggie the Undying, and I think that there will be relevance to at, at least a few of the characters understanding why she is the Undying.

Zinzi Brookbree 34:41

I, would love from each of you at this point in the story, give me your best guess into how many times she's gonna die in this first book.

Sage Moreaux 34:49

book

Katherine Suzette 34:50

Seven

Sage Moreaux 34:50

I was gonna say more than 10

Katherine Suzette 34:53

Is it only once?

Zinzi Brookbree 34:55

Wow. I'm not

Sage Moreaux 34:56

no

Zinzi Brookbree 34:57

gonna

Sage Moreaux 34:58

said more than 10 because Katherine said seven and

Zinzi Brookbree 35:01

'Cause Katherine went seven?

Katherine Suzette 35:02

Is

Sage Moreaux 35:03

no don't tell us Don't tell us

Zinzi Brookbree 35:05

I'm not, I'm not gonna tell you, but I am gonna say,

Katherine Suzette 35:08

Give me

Zinzi Brookbree 35:08

did you just, do you just assume that she's gonna become an assassin and that's like, that's gonna be her s- in the whole rest of the book? So how, h- how is a person who's like, "I want shelter and safety" gonna get murdered? Seven times or 10 times.

Sage Moreaux 35:25

She's like the spy whisperer right Like so yeah I'll say three also but setting herself up to like be this keeper of secrets and to like that is a very dangerous role just gonna say

Katherine Suzette 35:38

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 35:39

Can I give my can I give my

Katherine Suzette 35:41

dangerous characters.

Zinzi Brookbree 35:42

there is, there's no shortage of danger, but she is smart.

Sage Moreaux 35:47

I was noticing same thing Chekhov's gun idea So there is very early on on page like five there's mention of the author of the origin of the book series that she read

Zinzi Brookbree 36:01

Yes, Adrian LaTour.

Sage Moreaux 36:04

and I think he's there too and that he hadn't read the th written the third book which maybe he wrote it and it never got published We don't know that yet But um so I think my I think well my one of my predictions is that he was the guy the guy the unnamed man at the at the

Katherine Suzette 36:25

The tavern.

Zinzi Brookbree 36:26

Eye is in the garden.

Sage Moreaux 36:29

Yes the guy

Zinzi Brookbree 36:30

Golden Eye in the garden.

Sage Moreaux 36:31

there was two people There was that guy that chased her and I was like she's making it out like that is some villain who's gonna rape her or whatever but and murder her again But I he could

Zinzi Brookbree 36:42

Get her

Sage Moreaux 36:47

or maybe that man that she didn't name talked to her

Zinzi Brookbree 36:51

attention, yeah.

Sage Moreaux 36:52

He said something about how we were both like pretending to be people we weren't But then I also thought he could be like the king or some high up noble that hasn't been r introduced

Zinzi Brookbree 37:01

Okay.

Sage Moreaux 37:02

my predictions

Zinzi Brookbree 37:03

Those are great predictions. I can give clarity. The guy that chased her outside of the, garden just, c- does not matter, just he's, that's, that's part of

Katherine Suzette 37:13

be fine with that

Zinzi Brookbree 37:18

If you have your own guards, you're probably fine. But if you don't, like, someone who comes out of there drunk is rife for thieves and opportunists to pick pockets, steal, you know, steal stuff and go after you. So, the guy who chased her down, at that point in the story, irrelevant. All right, was there anything real quick that, a favorite moment or, or a line or something you guys wanted to ta- chat on?

Sage Moreaux 37:43

I was

Zinzi Brookbree 37:43

I'm...

Sage Moreaux 37:44

she got a bath I feel like that was my favorite moment It's like thank God she has a bath

Zinzi Brookbree 37:51

Ugh.

Sage Moreaux 37:52

got shoes because after reading Dungeon Crawler Carl recently I was like Thank God she got shoes

Katherine Suzette 37:57

I'm excited for everything

Sage Moreaux 37:58

I also thought there was this lovely section where she like talked about how if she was dumped into a fantasy story this is what she would expect and it was to be like this noble lady or this villain or whatever and there was always like reference to a hot dude And I thought that those could be hints to something but I don't know, Also there was like numerous potential love interests so I'm excited for that to kind of there was

Zinzi Brookbree 38:23

Okay.

Sage Moreaux 38:23

men described that they're you know

Zinzi Brookbree 38:26

is... So this is also part of the, in a fantasy book, there's always lots of hot guys, 'cause it's a fantasy book. Everybody, you know, the upper class is all extra pretty, and they lean into that here. We've met, three different men that have all been described as attractive according to Maggie. and we will, we will see what happens with any of them.

Sage Moreaux 38:52

that I'll have future predictions on those ones At this point I don't have any I think it's too early

Zinzi Brookbree 38:58

There's too many.

Sage Moreaux 39:00

Or maybe she just is it like reverse harem

Zinzi Brookbree 39:04

She's just collecting all the men.

Sage Moreaux 39:06

love interest does it Yeah

Zinzi Brookbree 39:07

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux 39:08

That's not my prediction I

Zinzi Brookbree 39:10

I am...

Sage Moreaux 39:11

gonna be recording my predictions as I go and posting them on our different channels

Zinzi Brookbree 39:16

Great.

Sage Moreaux 39:16

I read if you wanna make

Zinzi Brookbree 39:17

Thank you. Oh, but don't tell her that she's wrong. Don't spoil it. Just tell her she's right. Sh- th- on all of them, say, "Yes, you're right. That's exactly what happened," until she's confused, until she gets to it. Oh. All right. Your homework for the next episode is to read chapters six through 10. Read to the end of chapter 10. Do not start, Katherine, on chapter 11. we'll be doing our best to release these episodes weekly so that the wait for the next section won't be too long. outside of the podcast, we run monthly writing retreats as Book Dragon Ink, as well as weekly Zoom write-ins with me, Zinzi Bree, over on Substack with Write With Me Zinzi Bree. we'd love for you to check those out, and you can find the links in the show notes. if you like our book stuff here on the pod, check out our Substack where you can support us directly. thank you to Ria Nancoo I hope I'm pronouncing your name correctly, for your support. It's really appreciated. you can always leave us a review. It helps little indie podcasts like ours get noticed. Thank you for tuning in. and as Maggie says in chapter two, "Survive first, cry later." See you next time. Go do your homework.

Katherine Suzette 40:33

Hi. Happily, yes.