Book Dragon Banter
🐉 Welcome to Book Dragon Banter!
We're three aspiring authors: Sage, Katherine, and Zinzi Bree. Diving into the world of books, one chaotic conversation at a time.
Expect bookish deep-dives, trope talk, spicy opinions, and unfiltered banter. While fantasy is our first love, we’re not genre-exclusive, if it’s on a page, it’s on the table.
🐲 Join the #BookDragonBanter crew and get comfy! It's about to get nerdy. New episodes every other Tuesday!
Book Dragon Banter
Male Main Characters in Fantasy: From Aragorn to Shadow Daddies
Male Main Characters in Fantasy: From Aragorn to Shadow Daddies
Welcome back to Book Dragon Banter! Join us, Zinzi Bree, Sage Moreaux, and Katherine Suzette as we dive into our favorite male main characters in fantasy. This episode focuses heavily on archetypes such as heroes, shadow daddies, and cinnamon rolls in Romantasy and more. Join us for an in-depth discussion on the hero's journey, character development, the feminine gaze and our top book recommendations. Be prepared for an explicit conversation with a sprinkle of pop culture references and some spoilers. Don't forget to check our show notes for books you might not want to hear spoilers about. Enjoy!
Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter
TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod
Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/
Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/
Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/
Book Dragon Ink Retreats: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/ink-retreats
Upcoming Bookclub: The Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang
Fated Mated Podcast Episode Mentioned:
https://fatedmates.net/episodes/2019/9/17/s022-the-alpha-in-romance-novels-interstitial
Books Mentioned:
LOTR - J.R. R. Tolkien
The Golem and the Jinni by Helene Wecker
Boyfriend Material by Alexis Hall
Foxhole Court by Nora Sakavic
The Cruel Prince by Holly Black
Six of Crows by Leigh Bardugo
The Expanse by James S. A. Corey
Wolves of Midwinter by Anne Rice
The Cradle Series by Will Wight
The Vampire Diaries by L. J. Smith
The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins
Rhapsodic by Laura Thalassa
Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros
A Court of Thorns and Roses (ACOTAR Series) by Sarah J. Maas
Assistant to the Villain by Hannah Nicole Maehrer
Emily Wilde’s Encyclopedia of Fairies by Heather Fawcett
Quicksilver by Callie Hart
Shadow and Bone by Leigh Bardugo
Magical Midlife Madness by K. F. Breene
The Knight and the Moth by Rachel Gillig
The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins
Farseer Trilogy by Robin Hobb
Recommended Books:
Emily Wilde’s Encyclopedia of Fairies by Heather Fawcett
Half a Soul by Olivia Atwater
His Majesty’s Dragon by Naomi Novik
The Magicians by Lev Grossman
Carry On by Rainbow Rowell
00:00 Welcome to Book Dragon Banter
00:58 Favorite Male Main Characters
03:02 Defining Male Main Characters
09:07 Hated Male Characters
14:49 Romantic Tropes and Male Characters
24:26 Male Character Archetypes
31:54 Exploring the Byronic Hero Archetype
33:04 Book Review: Quicksilver
33:33 Romantic Tropes and Character Archetypes
35:53 Midlife Madness and Mature Characters
40:48 The Hero's Journey: Female Protagonists
45:29
Welcome back to Book Dragon Banter podcast. We're so glad you're here. I am Zinzi Bree joining me today as usual are Sage Moreaux and Katherine Suzette, my wonderful co-hosts. Today we are talking about, our mmcs, our male main characters, heroes and Heroes and the heroes journey. we're gonna get into some of the common archetypes that we're reading most often in fantasy these days, and pretty heavy, focus on Romantasy here a little bit in some of these breakdowns, but I'm excited to get into it with you guys.
Sage Moreaux:this is an explicit podcast so that we can share our honest opinions with you.
Zinzi Bree:this episode leans very heavily into pop culture stuff a little bit more, I think, than some of our other ones,
Katherine Suzette:And we do talk about spoilers, so you can check the show notes to see if there's a book that you don't wanna hear. But otherwise, stick with us. The spoilers are worth it.
Zinzi Bree:Okay, so I have to start us off. Favorite male, main character. Ladies, who do you got? Who's your favorite? Do you have a favorite? Can you pick a favorite?
Sage Moreaux:I have so many, it's really hard to narrow down. So Aragorn is. top, top, top favorite
Zinzi Bree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:of the Rings. From the moment that the Hobbits walked into the prancing pony and saw Strider sitting in the back corner in the dark, I was like, who is this man? And I don't know if I wanna be him or be with him or just like sword battle with him, train for, trained with weapons. I don't know. I can't Aragorn
Zinzi Bree:Yep. I will admit, my. Impression of Aragorn is very heavily influenced by, I saw the movies first. I did not read the books first. So, Viggo Mortenson, who's perfect casting for Aragorn,
Sage Moreaux:Yes. So good.
Zinzi Bree:he, yeah. Helps with making that the perfection that it is. However, he's not actually if in the Lord of the Rings, he is not my favorite. My favorite would be Sam,
Sage Moreaux:Sam.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Zinzi Bree:As a male main character. And they, they have very different burdens to bear for their stories. And they don't do the, they don't do it perfectly either of them, but they do as a reader, you get to see them trying their hardest to succeed, and that's what makes them compelling and likable and interesting. Katherine, do you have a favorite male character to put forth?
Katherine Suzette:I have so many as well. I love from the Golem and the Jinni I love, both characters and boyfriend material. Now, but none I've chosen to relay are your typical romantasy
Sage Moreaux:Like most romantasys Are not through the point of view of a man. So is that, how are we defining male main character for this?
Zinzi Bree:okay. Same rules apply here as they did for the female main characters, which is not specifically a female protagonist, but a main character that they have. That they're a character that has an arc in the story that, they get almost as much or very high amounts of page time. As whoever your protagonist is, whether it's a fellow male or female, and it is also a male identifying character.
Sage Moreaux:Okay.
Zinzi Bree:so that's, that's how we're defining our male main characters in this one. I'm surprised from you Sage for, all your talk of, the Cruel Prince and like, how is Kaz Brecker or, Cardin Greenbrier? How are they not? Your go-to Aragorn is like, he's such on a different spectrum of moral goodness
Sage Moreaux:true.
Zinzi Bree:than,
Sage Moreaux:said, I can't decide if like I wanna be aragorn. It is much less about being a romantic Like I also really love James Holden from The Expanse and he has a similar kind of moral high ground I love that so much in characters. And so I know that like Cardin in the Cruel Prince is morally gray. And I do love the morally great characters for the complexity that they bring and the depth of their character arcs. But when we're talking about male main characters where I just love everything that they embody it is gonna lead more into this, altruistic nature that I think Aragorn has. James Holden also, I don't know if you guys read The Expanse or saw the TV show, but I super love him
Zinzi Bree:a little bit.
Sage Moreaux:he has this he's very, and I think it,'cause it reminds me of myself. I'm very altruistic as a person and I'm also, often very idealistic and, necessarily realistic around some of that stuff. And I feel like that's the case for those characters too. When, I was talking once to, somebody about where I fell on the gender spectrum and I was like I'm female. I identify fully as a woman except for that bit of me that is Aragorn So I was like, ever since I said that, I was like, wow, okay, I'm just gonna hold that because what a person to emulate in life is this very, I always loved the reluctant hero that recognizes how much of a weight doing the right thing is, but does it anyways, like I've always really loved that. Most of my other favorite, male main characters from fantasy are not the love interests. I like the male protagonists primarily.
Zinzi Bree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:I do have some favorite love interest male characters. Cardin is one of them.
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Katherine Suzette:Oh, well that makes me
Zinzi Bree:It counts.
Katherine Suzette:change mind then because. this also brings in a little bit, ties into that ways, the ways that females write male main characters as opposed to the way that men write male main characters.
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:Kovich, I think she really represents the way that the masculine mind works according to as much as I can understand it as a cisgendered, never even tried to think like a man, person. But this book is it's an Ann Rice, the Wolves of Mid-Winter, the male main character. He's also the protagonist, Ruben. I believe the way that he thinks about the world, the way that he develops with all the changes around him and everything, he's almost a flat character, just like almost, and I think he thinks of things in a little bit more feminine way, the way that we've come to understand, the representation of these minds. I really enjoy the way that he encounters moral problems and makes his decisions and things like that. Zinzi, what's yours?
Zinzi Bree:I had to think about this and I went to Good Reads and scanned through hundreds of books that I have read. And I have to admit, there's only a couple of books that I have read that have a male protagonist, main character, male protagonist, that I've really, rated highly and been like, this is amazing. So I would have to say my favorite, male lead is probably Lindon from Will Wright's the Cradle Series. The first book is Unsouled and it is a, it is not lit. RPG, it is progression fantasy. It is, initially at first it got very Asian flavors to it, but, it is such a underdog to like all the way up to God tier. And it's just the structure of the power leveling and the growth that Lindon goes through, like on each of those stages is just, it's so fantastic. Like just, it's so well written, and spread out along the course of the, I think there's 10 or 12 books. the premise even in the first book, Lindon is, unsouled. So everyone else has some ability to channel like q or magic and he can't, so he's, treated very poorly because everyone else is better than him, literally. I love his struggle. I love his desire to do what's right. I love his, sense of humor also, is good. I will admit, that the first two or three books in this series are a bit slower and have less of the humor than the later books do have. But I highly recommend The Cradle Series by Will Wight.
Katherine Suzette:I wonder what I would think if I went back and reread, The Wolves have been winter now because, I read it like five years ago and it just left an impact with me. Like the sensations atmospheric appeal of it, the way that this character thought about things. But I wasn't an editor five years ago. I didn't think about books in the same way that I think about them now. And now I wonder if I went back and I applied all of the knowledge I have learned in the last few years to this. Maybe not read it analytically, but absorb it with the filters that I have now and see what would change for me, I don't know.
Zinzi Bree:All right. What about, is there a, a hated. I don't understand the hype. I have an answer for this, which, is Edward from Twilight and I respect Girlies, who, if you like him, you like him, he's for you. He's just not for me. Anyone who's, got the I watch you while you sleep. And then I leave in the morning and don't stick around. I'm gonna take issue with,
Sage Moreaux:Hmm.
Zinzi Bree:It would be different if I wasn't thinking of him in the context of a romantic lead, like as a romantic lead, he is not appealing to me. versus Jacob, I probably would have been more,'cause he was much more concerned with, what does Bella want and how do I give that to you? Instead of, oh, you want for Edward it was, oh, you want me, but you, that puts you in danger. Too bad we can't be together. Which I don't respect the. Decision that you can't work to find a solution together, the, I'm just gonna go, I'm gonna make the decision for you and, my decision is your safety matters more than your choice
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Zinzi Bree:bothers me.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah, agree. It's making me think of Vampire Diaries, which I've been rewatching a little bit of and a similar thing, but that's not a book, so I will veer away from that.
Zinzi Bree:Well, the Vampire Diaries were originally books.
Sage Moreaux:I, read the first one and I didn't love it, but I think I read it after I started watching the show, so that's a
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:I don't think that I have a male main character that I really hate. I'm pretty like amenable
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:and I'm good at seeing the good and bad. I'll have to think about it more because I can't, off the top of my head, think of like side characters that I'm not fond of. But in terms of a male lead, not so much.
Zinzi Bree:I just, my brain goes to like, there's so many. Especially in ya, love triangles where maybe I have second lead syndrome where just the second lead, because they usually tend to be the more nurturing, listen to the girl, sometimes self-sacrificing in a way that maybe they shouldn't have made that decision and then they would've gotten the girl, kind of way. I think I like them better often than whatever male lead thinks he's making the right decisions that are for the female lead and then is just creating drama or creating the miscommunication trope
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:will say, now that you
Zinzi Bree:Ah,
Sage Moreaux:that,'cause I'm wondering if you're thinking of Gail from the Hunger Games and I actually did. I didn't really like Gail very much. I didn't hate him per se, but I just, every time I was annoyed with him and, all the way through. And I am a huge Peeta fan. A lot of the choices that Gail made, I didn't agree with.
Zinzi Bree:Respect,
Sage Moreaux:yeah. I don't really enjoy him.
Zinzi Bree:Gail and PETA would be the exception for me, where I'm definitely team Peeta on that one. Full on Team Bread Boy. Katherine, do you have a hated or disliked or if you're reading that, is that just a book that you're like, maybe I'll DNF this because I just don't care?
Katherine Suzette:Yeah, I would say that that's more me. And the thing is if I really don't like the characters, if they're irritating me enough to quit the book, I am probably going to not remember it unless it's just so bad. I don't wanna just hate on one book, but the Twilight Series kind of famous for having people who adore it and people who can rail on it all day in not a good way. And, yeah, I just, I don't love really flat characters generally speaking, even though I did just say I really like the wolves midwinter. But like, it's the way that his, internal world is written.
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:I think when a man just has nothing that I can respect in his choices, not going to love that character. and I do think it's really popular, especially in the romantic stuff to have kind of some creepy tropes in there. the man who falls in love with the girl, before she's of age and things like that. And so he respectfully waits until she's of age to go after her, but it disturbs me, a lot. I think that's not the first book in the series, but it's, there's a, Hades, Persephone retelling. Rhapsodic. Yeah. So he waited centuries and centuries for the girl to come along, and then he knew she was the one, like he felt that connection pop into place and all that. Okay, fine. I have a little bit more. I can give him a little bit more leeway on that. okay. And he still respectfully waited until she grew up and all of that. But there's still something so creepy, about men who watch the women sleep through the window, who fall in love before they're of age, like that. Or men who in order to get the girl manipulate her or the situation. I am not a fan I don't like manipulation. I don't like miscommunication on purpose. I don't like gaslighting. I don't like telling I don't
Zinzi Bree:Amen.
Katherine Suzette:non-supportive characters who are all about themselves. I love it when a man chooses to put his love interest first. At least in a situation that shows some kind of commitment. It doesn't have to be all the time, like, oh, I'm self-sacrificing all the time. No, I think it's far more important though to show that they can choose the other person and choose it with no of return on that. It's simply because they love love interest, that they make this choice that's best for them. but speaking of making a choice's best for them when they remove themselves. Like, oh, I think you'd be better off. without me.'cause I'm just such a horrible person. That too is like why not let them decide what they want?
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:people.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah,
Katherine Suzette:that's just another one of those like habitual tropes and male main characters. They're like, I just decided I wasn't good enough for you.
Sage Moreaux:A lot more in romantasy, I think, than in of standard fantasy with a romantic subplot, is some of these heavier tropes, like
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:of the drama, right? You wanna have like this relationship, drama. So you bring in all of these various reasons that the characters can't be together or why they might, if you, especially for a long series, right? You don't want'em to get together at the end of book one, and then that's it. What's the rest of your plot if it's a romantasy? to constantly bring up things that are gonna throw a wrench in the situation, and it's exhausting.
Zinzi Bree:now we're even seeing in romantic, and I'm thinking of I think Fourth Wing even where the couple will get together physically, but what's being held off is the emotional intimacy, the eventual,"I love you." Like that's what's being held, off from the female main character, not saying it to the male character
Katherine Suzette:Mm-hmm.
Zinzi Bree:like that's more often now where it's the woman is holding herself back than it is the guy. I think the, we're seeing more in fantasy and romantasy where the guy is, is all in, crawl through the ground for her, where the girl then gets to be in the position of power
Sage Moreaux:Mm-hmm.
Zinzi Bree:and carrying that throughout the series.
Sage Moreaux:That's, one of the, so there's definitely spoilers in what I'm gonna say, but in A Court of Thorns and Roses that's one of the things I really liked about Rhysand is he was like, so about Feyre, who I did not love her very much, but I loved how, and there was the whole like, mate thing, so that's always like a grain of salt for me. But he was like so in love with her and I just do really like that when the male character is. Not playing hard to get or
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:issues.'cause I think that's a kind of older trope. And I like that there's a change in that. where there's yeah, I'm super into you, but there's all this other drama that's causing us from being together. Or, he did a lot of that same thing where it was like, oh, I don't know if I'm good enough for you. I don't want you to choose me and then have to deal with my mess or and
Zinzi Bree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:I didn't love that part, but I do really, I also really like a wounded, it's just whatever about me. But I do really like the wounded male love interest where he's got such like baggage to go through. I think it's because it, it's a way of showing emotional arc for
Katherine Suzette:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:the man. And it's, if he is processing through emotional hardship or I think some women have the mothering instinct wanna help the, wounded.
Zinzi Bree:Sage, do you have the, I can fix him.
Sage Moreaux:No, I don't, not personally.
Zinzi Bree:the, I can fix him.
Sage Moreaux:don't know. And I also like in a, I. Actual human relationship way. I don't want the wounded Right. I'm happily married, but in, in like my life, I have never been like, oh, you're so damaged and wounded. Let me bring you out of that's not at all. But in fiction,
Zinzi Bree:exhausting.
Sage Moreaux:yeah. Oh my god. So much work. And not with a you can't change other people. you can support them in their own path
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:Becoming the best version of themselves.
Zinzi Bree:They gotta do the work.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah.
Zinzi Bree:Yep.
Sage Moreaux:some reason in, for, I do like male characters who I, and maybe it's just'cause I see that with a lot of female characters and I like it there to be equity.
Katherine Suzette:Hmm. And maybe that is another thing about the written from the female perspective. We want the emotions on the page. We want to see the male man character, especially in a love interest situation, choosing to grow. Whether or not it has anything to do with the other person is a little irrelevant. I want them for their own health. Just like when I was talking about my actual. Ideal male for myself, like I, I want them to be choosing themselves and taking care of themselves. And for me, that does mean some emotional growth, in the character. And one of the books I mentioned earlier is by Nora Kovich, the, Fox Hill Court. It's not a traditional fantasy, although it's all wrapped around a fantasy sport that the author invented.
Zinzi Bree:Ooh.
Katherine Suzette:interesting, it's kinda like lacrosse and rugby, but these characters, every single one of them has a lot that they are going through. And it's revealed in such a way that you really do get that emotional connection between characters before you ever get anything physical. And I am so tired, honestly, of everything, like the physical part being what ties characters together. But he just knows all the buttons to push. He knows all my everything physically. But what about the emotional connection? I would rather have the physical part be the slow burn have the emotions be unveiled to me and connecting everybody and bringing them together so that I know when they do jump into the sheets, there's profound connection. Now, I also don't care. There are a lot of female characters who I adore, and male main characters that I adore that, just don't. the emotional connection over the physical, especially in the beginning because they just enjoy, human physical connection. I'm trying to, uh, how explicit do we be here? But,
Sage Moreaux:This
Zinzi Bree:We're an explicit podcast, Kat
Katherine Suzette:that's all right.
Zinzi Bree:you can say it however you want.
Katherine Suzette:Okay, good. I don't need everybody to think of sex in the same way that I do as more profound and important. They can go and have all their fun, but with a love interest, I personally, as a reader want to see emotional connection or I'm never going to value that relationship and remember it from a book. It's just not something that I care about. And again, that's another female perspective, male perspective, especially in the romantic stuff that we see that female gaze coming in. What do we want out of our books? And these days there's something about it, like, we want our porn on a page okay, fine. But I'm there to fall in love with the characters. I'm there to fall in love with their relationship. I'm there to fall in love with their stories. And so that's just, I'm coming to the books for a different reason than a lot of the modern romantasy seems to be going, that, explicit for the purpose of feeling the physical responses. It's just not what gets me to be reading that book. It can get me to stay in a book in a way with Rhysand and, Feyre and things like that. Okay. Their little moments are now classic in the romantasy genre. But I'm not reading for that. I'm reading for how he shows up for her, how he takes care of her, how she How he treats her in the books.
Sage Moreaux:I,
Zinzi Bree:he empowers her.
Sage Moreaux:yeah. And also, and how they do it for each other. Important. That's definitely an ACOTAR What's happening is Rhysand helping Feyre through all of her. Post-traumatic stress syndrome of, becoming immortal. And she's also helping him through his 50 years of being basically a sex slave. And
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:past trauma too, but they're, they do help each other with their emotional issues and I like that as an element. what Zinzi said earlier about how the physicality will come on the page a lot sooner than the emotional connection drives me crazy.'cause I would actually, I don't mind the slow burn. I don't mind the teasing a little flirting, kissing kind of stuff like that. But when there's like hardcore sex on the page, the porn on the page early on, and you're d dangling, then, I feel like it goes either way. You're either dangling the sex to eventually happen, like an assistant to the villain. I don't know if you guys have read all three of those books, but I think there's gonna be a fourth one. The,
Zinzi Bree:there is supposed to be a fourth one.
Sage Moreaux:burn is so torturous to the point where you're like, okay, now I just feel like you're stringing me along. But early I liked it because it was like, okay, they get to have a relationship outside of the sex that's developing. And yes, there's the flirting, yes, there's the physical attraction, but we're not gonna just jump into this being which maybe isn't realistic necessarily, but I dunno, interesting.
Katherine Suzette:I think that part of what bothers me, by making sex the reason characters get together and stay together is especially those where they're not like an immortal being, they're not always going to be in their twenties in romantasy and they will age eventually and there's got to be some kind of emotional connection that keeps these people together and supporting each other through aging for me, because of what I was telling you guys earlier with my, genetic conditions and the chronic conditions that have come up because of that, they've got to show that they can support each other through sickness and in health.
Zinzi Bree:Hmm.
Katherine Suzette:a bit of a traditional marriage line here in America, but it means a lot to me to know that the characters can support each other even when they're not at their best, especially when they're not at their best. And especially when sex is not an option. For one reason or another they've just got to a particular age and it just doesn't, it isn't the thing for them anymore. Or the physical health is getting in the way or just too fucking tired. Things like that. Wanna know what happens when between the characters when sex is off the table. So again, love foxhole Court. Go read it. There's not even any sex on the page. It is indicated in book three, I think. And it's all L-G-B-T-Q rep, by the way. It's subtle and it's gorgeous. The characters, I adore them. I love them so much. I really want more books. Nora, if you're listening, please write more books.
Zinzi Bree:okay, I have a whole list here, guys, having done research on, different types of, now I will admit a lot of my interactions with a male main character are from the perspective of the heroine that he's pursuing. So I'm much more familiar with these kind of archetypes, the cinnamon roll, the golden retriever, the shadow Daddy, alpha holes, which I recently learned about alpha holes and alpha males.
Sage Moreaux:Yep.
Zinzi Bree:And that there's like betas and gammas. And I was like what in the world? I do wanna talk about the nice guy character,
Katherine Suzette:yeah.
Zinzi Bree:So I'll, get into some definitions here So the Himbo, is considered an attractive and fit, but lacking in intellectual depth male, who is kind and respectful and well-intentioned. Examples of this, not in books, but from film, are George of the Jungle, with Brendan Frazier and Kronk, From the Emperor's New Groove. Like Kronk is such a perfect example of a Himbo, but George of the Jungle is an example of a Himbo as a romantic lead. I love that movie. It's, an example of what the feminine gaze in film and in the romantic comedy, era is a counterpoint to the masculine gaze.'cause like in the majority of films, the masculine gaze is what you see. there's a zoom up on the women's legs. There's a shot of here's her boobs before we see her face. The sexual appeal is often shown. If you look at, even in the Marvel movies, the early, Ironman and how. Black Widow is introduced Scarlett Johansen. Like, it's really interesting seeing the early movies where she's in, tight dress, leopard print, high heels, and in her own movie, black Widow, at the end of her tenure on Marvel, and she's, in a hoodie and sweatshirts and in camo pants and short hair, and isn't about satisfying the male gaze. It's not, her story isn't about that at that point. She's not needing to be introduced. you see her as a fully complex human being at that point because she's so well developed.
Sage Moreaux:Yep.
Zinzi Bree:Sorry, tangent with that there's a cinnamon roll, which is a sweet and warm personality, emotionally available, good hearted nature, possibly sometimes with a tough exterior. And there's specifically a contrast with alpha holes generally, like those are your two ends of the spectrum of, male archetypes in my opinion. Golden Retriever is also here with cinnamon roll. golden Retriever, is very similar to the cinnamon roll, but with a difference being, their level of energy. They're very energetic and enthusiastic, so they have the, a little bit more good dog to them. I think a good example of this is Wendell from Emily Wildes, encyclopedia of fairies. I would consider him a golden retriever, male lead. he just, follows Emily to very cold places, even though he does not wanna be in the cold, but it's where she is. So he's gonna follow her and join her, and force his way into also writing a book with her so he can just be near her,
Katherine Suzette:Hmm
Zinzi Bree:Kind of a character. and then we have shadow daddies, which are our morally gray, darkened brooding, usually have shadow powers, which is part of where the shadow daddy name comes from. Also have protective devotion. It does seem like in general, most shadow daddies are, older, or immortal or, you know, some level of not, the same age as the main character. and classic examples of this is Rhysand, the Darkling and Hades are all, and like there's Shadow Daddy is super popular and pretty much all over, romantasy in particular. During my research into these different archetypes, on Reddit, there was a recommendation to listen to a podcast episode done by Fated Mates that was on. Alphas Fated Mates is a romance book podcast primarily, done by a romance writer and a romance editor. And they got into a conversation about how the appeal for alpha characters, for the Christian grays, for the jerk, billionaire, whatever, alpha male, story, and why he's such an appealing romantic interest has to do with patriarchy and it's with, during the course of the story, the male representing patriarchy, realizes his mistake at some point, grovel to the heroine and comes back to her seeking equality.
Sage Moreaux:That might be why I like some of the Shadow Daddy characters more
Zinzi Bree:it just that.
Sage Moreaux:the patriarchy torn down and the mistakes. But yes, that was wrong.
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:Love that.
Zinzi Bree:It just, blew my mind a little bit and I was like, do I feel, and I'm shadow Daddy is not my preferred, I read cinnamon rolls and I read, golden retrievers and stuff, but like for, if I needed a justification for why I would enjoy that sort of story where there's, here's, hot unaccessible guy, blah, blah, blah. That's so stereotypical, getting, his comeuppance in a way, in an emotional way and learning to have emotion. Like that's, yes, I want that, and I don't want it to just be a fantasy. I'm reading it in my fantasy books. but that's part of the story that I want to be real. I want them to learn and to grow and to have an arc and to seek, equality and mutually lifting each other up and supporting each other. I came across that point and I, I thought it was amazing and wanted to share that. And I think it also applies specifically to the shadow daddy because a lot of the Shadow Daddy characters kind of go through that cycle,
Sage Moreaux:the things that I notice with them is,'cause I do find myself gravitating towards the shadow daddy characters, as a romantic interest. Not
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:the protagonist. But they do start in a position of power and this whole thing of having like shadow power usually it's like they are very strong in their magic, right? They are very powerful individuals.
Zinzi Bree:masculine.
Sage Moreaux:And usually very masculine and often look very similar to each other with dark hair and crazy colored eyes or whatever. So
Zinzi Bree:Sorry, I really wanna interrupt you for just a second on, I was on TikTok and there was a whole, a whole video that someone had done that was getting attention, that it was, she was sending, AI art of different characters, or maybe it was an ar maybe she found some fan art of Zayden and, Rhysand and the darkling and different versions of Hades and all of these different guys. And she had to label them with their names because they all looked the same. They were all dark, brooding,
Sage Moreaux:Yep.
Zinzi Bree:magical ta, you know, tattooed. And it was like, I don't know. I can't tell who. And if that they all look the same until you've got like the, maybe a Draco, not Draco, Malfoy, Draco, Malfoy. Character. It's like, where's,
Sage Moreaux:that looks different. But it's also a very
Zinzi Bree:because he is blonde.
Sage Moreaux:cause he is blonde, but it's not like he's golden blonde. He's like ice blonde.
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:think that has a similar element to the like black hair and
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:violet or blue eye. Super blue eyes. Gray eyes. And that is, similar to that like ice blue. There's like something about it that has an extreme level to the look.
Zinzi Bree:They're all Byronic heroes.
Katherine Suzette:Byronic I need an
Zinzi Bree:Yes.
Katherine Suzette:I was just like, wait, what?
Sage Moreaux:I dunno what that is either.
Zinzi Bree:So, Byron Hero comes from Lord Byron Poetry, like older. But a, the classic Byron Hero is Heathcliff from Weathering Heights. And I feel like shadow daddies are the modern evolution of a Byron hero, where you still have your, your traumatic past very moody, and or darker color palette as far as personal coloring and like their iconography. And even, I mean, Heath Cliff is a biron hero. Jane Ayre. Mr. Rochester also Biron Hero. The versions where Dracula is a, is a love interest would put him on a biron hero kind of level, it's an old fashioned word, maybe for a shouted daddy or the more,
Sage Moreaux:I am
Zinzi Bree:smarty pants.
Sage Moreaux:I'm learning. I have such a type and I didn't know it was a biron hero. Now I know.
Zinzi Bree:Yep. Your type might be Barron Hero. Yeah. You can continue on your, you like shadow daddies?
Sage Moreaux:so I think I do, but then I was reading this book that's pretty new. It's called Quicksilver.
Zinzi Bree:Haven't read it yet,
Sage Moreaux:So it's. It's pretty good. And it, I felt like it had a lot of potential. I'm looking forward to reading the second one'cause it felt a little all over the place. There's Faye and there's vampires and there's, alchemy, which was that part I enjoyed quite a lot. it falls in the category to me that I don't necessarily love of romantic of it just feeling like you have to throw all the things in. Like you have to have the banter and you have to have the sex scenes and you have to have the moody male, biron hero, shadow daddy, and you have to have the like, confused human, main, female protagonist. And I read AAR quite a long time ago and was pretty new at that point, I think. I don't even think all of them had come out when I started reading it. And I feel like now everything is just a little bit of a variation on a theme. His name is King Fisher.
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:and I actually, so then I was like, oh, but I like him. So I was like, yeah, okay. So yeah, I didn't love the main character as much as a woman, but I was like, oh, but I'm into this good, Kingfisher is a weird name and I like that. And he is moody and, I don't, maybe he's a vampire. That's a spoiler. So sorry. I was like, that's what like pulled me through the story where it got, there was some inconsistencies in, in plot and like pacing And there was like way too much of that early sex, like Katherine was talking about. There was a lot of talk about erections and a lot of, I'm so into you and I can smell that you're into me because I'm a Fay and like this kind of stuff.
Zinzi Bree:Oh,
Sage Moreaux:get annoyed by
Zinzi Bree:I hate that
Sage Moreaux:yeah. So,
Zinzi Bree:gross.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah,
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. It
Sage Moreaux:was a lot of that kind of stuff, but there was enough of a plot through line that I was interested in where it was going. Especially once this vampire, I like vampires. So once the vampire piece got introduced, I was like, okay, it's not just your traditional Fay story. So I'll read the second one, see how it evolves from there. But yeah, same thing. It's again, a shadow daddy, young human woman. She's in her twenties, I think now I've noticed with a lot of the romantic, the women are of age, so at least the ones that I've come across. So they are,
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:there's not a question of whether or not you can have sex with them.
Katherine Suzette:oh, yeah,
Sage Moreaux:We'll save that for the romance episode.
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:not gonna even start down that one.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. stories where the characters are above like 30 years old are compelling these days.'cause a lot of us who really got into romantic stuff like that, yeah, we love a lot of the ya and NA stuff, but it's like at age 30, a lot of this apparently like dies in books. Like they're just not interested about writing a character with an active sex life above 30 years old or something. So that's one of the reasons why I love, midlife Madness. And this, the whole series on that, I think it's a leveling up series, simply because the characters like really own that they're in their midlife. And they are, choosing a whole new life for themselves as often needs to happen in our world because we make choices in our twenties that we get to change finally in our forties. I like to be able to see characters who take hold and make changes in their lives. and that's for male main characters as much as female main characters and whatever gender they go by. But like to see characters who take their life by the reins and make different choices and. Do it in a really good and compelling way and like in midlife madness, like it's super sexually charged, there is a emotional development and emotional connection before there is physical, connection in that one. And I appreciate that as well. And again, not everything has to be written to suit my personal preferences or anything like that. But I really like when there's emotional connection to tie characters together. Otherwise, what is gonna keep that relationship going strong later in life.
Zinzi Bree:Can I just interrupt you for a second? Austin Steele. All the green flags.
Katherine Suzette:the
Zinzi Bree:All the green flags ladies.
Katherine Suzette:And who needs a cinnamon roll when you can have a polar bear? have like total alpha energy, but he is a polar bear.
Zinzi Bree:I mean, he's a polar bear who is a cinnamon roll.
Katherine Suzette:yeah. But like the wolves, they're like last century folks. Get on this
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm. You got a polar bear,
Katherine Suzette:All for it. All for it.
Zinzi Bree:Sage, you gotta read it. All right. Yeah, so some other extra terms that I came across, that I had listed. the alpha male, the alpha hole, which the alpha like tamlin in book one doesn't come across, but as soon as you get to book two, as soon as you get to a, a course of aqua, of frost and starlight, right? Is that the second one? Tamlin is you recognize all of his alpha alcohol ways, something else that comes out of romance tropes that I saw was, the TSTL, which is too stupid to live.
Katherine Suzette:Oh.
Zinzi Bree:Which is the isn't for the men, but for the heroines where they're constantly putting themselves in such dumb situations, that's a, it's amazing that they survive. The other one that I enjoyed is the Duke of Slut,
Sage Moreaux:Ooh,
Katherine Suzette:I know this.
Zinzi Bree:which is, so the Duke of Slut is, it's a male lead that goes around and sleeps around until he meets the one. So he's very well practiced in bed, enjoys being in bed, hasn't met a female that he has a problem sleeping with. the Duke of slut would also be considered, the rake, classically out of historical romance.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah.
Zinzi Bree:but I just,
Sage Moreaux:in most historical romance. Like almost every male lead was a
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:and he is just For it.'cause that's how it was back then.
Katherine Suzette:I like a
Zinzi Bree:The, I was trying to think is, yeah,
Sage Moreaux:The Totally.
Zinzi Bree:I just finished the night and the moth, and something I appreciated about that is even though the main character is a priestess, her virginity is not part of what makes her magical or a priestess. So she is allowed to sleep around. And some of the other, sisters in her, sisterhood, take nights to just go roll in the grass, go roll in the green. And I was like, it is, that felt refreshing that the virginity wasn't required. It was interesting to be like, okay, here's some characters that, there's a Duke and Duchess of slut over here where they're experimenting and they've slept with other people, and that's fine and we can move forward and do better together. And I just, I appreciated that.
Katherine Suzette:I really wanna read Duke of Slut now, and the night of the month is on my, holds list.
Zinzi Bree:Duke of Slut is not a book title that I'm aware of. If somebody, if that's out there,
Katherine Suzette:really wanted to read that.
Sage Moreaux:You never know. It could be.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Zinzi Bree:yeah, somebody write that. If it's not written already. The Duke of Slut? No, that's the Duke of Slut is that's just, the rake the Archetype. Not a book title.
Katherine Suzette:you said
Zinzi Bree:Okay.
Katherine Suzette:said the too dumb to live or too stupid to
Zinzi Bree:Too Stupid to Live Bella.
Katherine Suzette:I noticed that like the damsel and distress thing is like super common, or at least it was with a lot of the FMC kind of things. But now I see it a lot in the, LGBT stuff, especially with when it's, when it's a male protagonist and a male romantic interest that one of them is just like, really too stupid to live. And then The main guy is, or vice versa, they're always having to be rescued by their love interest.
Sage Moreaux:That's interesting.
Katherine Suzette:retriever and they're too stupid to live and like it's, it is, it's adorable. But there's something about it where you're like, I'm really concerned for this person, in real life, would this work? I don't know.
Zinzi Bree:That's why it's fantasy.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah.
Katherine Suzette:That's fair.
Zinzi Bree:I wanna circle back to, because I promised in the female episode that I would come up with some, female heroes that go on the Heroes journey. Which I had, talked a little bit with Sage about this, and she brought up that Katniss, goes on the hero's journey and I, fully agree with that, having done a little more research. the Hero's journey it feels kind of like a pillar of storytelling'cause it's seen so much the Star Wars movies particularly. The very first one is built on the hero's journey. Katniss in Hunger Games is Hero's Journey. The first Harry Potter book is Hero's Journey. And hero's journey. He's got both of those kind of layered in. It's really well done. I don't wanna praise JKR for anything because of my feelings about her choices, but objectively looking at the writing and the popularity of the story, it is what it is. Another one that is a female that goes on the hero's journey is Mulan. So Mulan gets, so here's the structure Mulan is living her normal, ordinary life. if you're following the Disney version, she's about to be match made to go off and be married, and then the call to adventure comes. And that is her father gets the order to go to war because he's the only male in the family. that then causes her to make a decision, and to leave her ordinary world and go into New World pretending to be a male going into the army, taking her father's place, which she does. She almost fails out of. And this is, I'm mostly taking this from the Disney version of Mulan'cause it's just a little easier at the moment to go through in my brain. She almost fails and washes out of the Army. as one of her challenges that she goes through, but then she's able to overcome that. And, you've got, mohu, I don't know necessarily qualifies as the usual, older mentor character because he's much more comic relief. But, the equivalent is Gandalf for Frodo, Obi, one for Luke Skywalker. There's usually an older, mentor figure in the hero's journey. And at some point they almost always die or go missing or something happens to them. They get separated from the hero.
Katherine Suzette:Could
Zinzi Bree:So that the hero can have agency. he could technically count, even though he's also the romantic interest. I don't see an issue with that being dual things, but anyway, You go through further in the story and, they get attacked by the Huns. She saves them, but in the process, she gets revealed as a woman and gets expelled from the army. that's kind of the dark night of the soul, where then she choose, do I go home or do I do what's right? Even if it might cost, you know, in the traditional Mulan, she gets beheaded after she's discovered, like that's the end of the story, and Disney's not about that. So that version, then becomes the, she continues on to rescue the emperor, from the Huns and has her life changed, is then celebrated. But at the end of the story, she still goes back home, to her home, and she's brought honor, to her family home. And like, that's the structure, of the hero's journey. And Katniss does the same where at the end of her story, after in the first book, and even the whole trilogy, at the end after she has succeeded at the games or succeeded, in completing the revolution, she goes home, she goes back to district 13, right? changed, and in her case, particularly melancholic. It's, you know, changed and traumatized and, and sad, but trying to heal. so that's, that's part of the hero's journey. So there's your, your two females who take a very clear hero's journey as Katniss and Mulan.
Sage Moreaux:When we were talking about female main characters, and we talked about how the, I don't know if there is a term I'm, there probably is, I guess it's like action girl, or there's maybe another term for that, but where women have in a response to patriarchy, in a response to the feminist movement. We have all these main characters that are strong women who take on the characteristics of men, right? They are really good at battle. They're really tough. They swear a lot and they have all these kind of swaggery kind of elements, right? wanted to talk about what I'm noticing in our conversation here for now. We are talking a lot about romantic, leads, the, for the
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:It's almost like a feminist pivoting from the traditional male gaze of females. And we're putting a female gaze on men and categorizing them into these buckets. A lot of the tropes of these male characters are very two dimensional now. And that's not to say that authors don't often do a really good job of deepening those characters, even though the character might fall into a bucket of being a shadow daddy or being a cinnamon roll. But it's Easy to
Zinzi Bree:Objectify.
Sage Moreaux:objectify and to just say this is you're this kind of character and you fit this role and you're not as much of a whole person. And so I just wanna throw a shout out to a few books that I love that have a male main character where it's not a romance and the men, some of them are written by men and some are written by women. So I really, like I mentioned Eric Gorn, but he's not necessarily main character. That one has a variety of main characters.
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:there is a, I'm a little older and I grew up reading a lot of fantasy novels where there weren't a lot of female main characters. So there were these men. And so I do recognize that I have a little bit of that. But, one of my favorite characters of all times is Fitz Farer from the Farer Trilogy by Robin Hobb. That's all of her book I think I've read all, but like two. And they're awesome. They're definitely, I think it's considered low fantasy,'cause it's never about kings and queens, but it's definitely like what you traditionally think of as a high fantasy setting or a Game of Thrones, like super epic fantasy. but Fitz Chivalry is the bastard.
Zinzi Bree:but not necessarily high fantasy because low fantasy is often more the supernatural and contemporary. As far as my understanding of those categories go
Sage Moreaux:Okay. Yeah. So epic fantasy, but not high fantasy. I have heard her. Be put in the low fantasy bucket. But it's definitely like Fit Lavery is, they call him Fitz. He is the bastard of the king and gets adopted by the royal assassin and trained up to be an assassin. And his, there's magical elements and he has this kind of magic that is very looked down upon where he can commune with animals.
Zinzi Bree:hm.
Sage Moreaux:And that's like this big shame that he holds because he has these strong bonds with these animals and it's tried to have, he gets it. They try to beat it out of him. Anyway, he's a great example of a very conflicted character who probably does go through a hero's journey. I think there's nine books where he is the protagonist in it, but he, it's written through first person and every time I read those books, I like feel almost IS I'm like I am him or I relate so heavily. I think he's a very well-rounded character. the other one I'll save'cause it's part of my recommendation for this time.
Zinzi Bree:For the end.
Sage Moreaux:like there are a lot of well-rounded male characters, but they're often not in the position of being romantic lead. So if it's the female protagonist, I love it when the male character, the romance that she's into is really well-rounded as opposed to just being this like stereotypical, I'm gonna write enemies to lovers with a shadow daddy
Zinzi Bree:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:and the characters are flatter. I really love it when the character is, even if they're the secondary character, the romance,'cause we don't want, as women, we don't want the male, the female. If it's a male protagonist, we don't want the female love interest to be flat. We want a well-rounded female character. Right. So same thing with the men. Gonna get off my high horse, but I just wanted to talk about that because I think it's nice
Zinzi Bree:It is important.
Sage Moreaux:Yeah. And it's nice to see that it's not all male gaze all the time, which for so long it was so now we have female gaze too,
Zinzi Bree:also getting into the female gaze or the feminine gaze,'cause I don't think you have to be female to have a feminine gaze.
Sage Moreaux:Thank
Zinzi Bree:but there's, it's interesting. You've been seeing on social media the, videos that'll be, this is what I look like when I dress for the male gaze and it's. Low cut tops and shorter skirts and emphasize the hips. This is what I wear for the female gaze and it tends to be like, oh, there's now flowers on the shirt, and it's a big poofier skirt and it's very, very feminine in a delicate and floral. It's very, I don't often see it being fierce. And I found that interesting in, in looking at some of those videos. Because to me, dressing for the female feminine gaze, it would run the spectrum from like this where I've got a little bit of puff sleeved on my blush pink shirt, all the way over to, hey, I'm wearing like a leather corset and I look badass because I'm about to go cosplay as someone who's going into a fight. Those are, I feel like it can be all of those things, or all along the spectrum of those things.
Sage Moreaux:Mm-hmm.
Zinzi Bree:feel like it's very limiting for the feminine gaze to just be on things that are pastels and dainty and sweet.
Katherine Suzette:Internet.
Zinzi Bree:feel like there's.
Sage Moreaux:I like that and I would say that the, leather corset is could go either direction.
Zinzi Bree:Hmm.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah.
Sage Moreaux:maybe to a feminine gaze and also masculine.
Katherine Suzette:I was thinking of also back to like male characters, like our thing with kilts, like men who wear kilts, the Highlander thing. Like why do we have a thing with that? Yes. B twos and ZB two I don't know. There's something about a man who is so secure in his masculinity. He doesn't give a shit what he's wearing. He is still who he is. Like a man that can put on a dress and go cosplay a female character because he just wants to, not because he has, gender confusion or maybe he is, a non-binary human, but yeah. A man who could just be a man in whatever he is wearing. Love it. And I feel the same way about women.
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:love the very non-binary, very starts with an A word look, the
Zinzi Bree:Androgynous.
Katherine Suzette:look, I love the androgynous Look, I love the super feminine look. I love it all. But what gets me is the character who's truly being themselves regardless of whatever gaze they're embodying or dressing for. They're just confident and comfortable. They feel good in that moment, on that
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:That's what I really love. But I mean also men in kilts, there's just, something about the masculinity of specifically Scottish man.
Zinzi Bree:Hmm.
Sage Moreaux:What you were saying goes with what I was talking about too, where it's like you want a whole character, you don't want just this man who's only attractive because he fits X, Y, Z category. You want like he could be in all of these different guises and still very self secure because he is more of a whole person. He's not one archetype. I would like to see some nons Scottish characters in Kilt.'cause to me that would really like, I mean if it's like your whole family heritage thing, it takes a little less security to wear a kilt. But if you are not like Scottish in the Highlands and you wear a
Zinzi Bree:Mm-hmm.
Sage Moreaux:that says a lot about your ability to kinda
Katherine Suzette:Yeah, I
Sage Moreaux:own that
Katherine Suzette:a male lead who wears whatever the hell he wants to wear because it feels comfortable. Maybe he does wear the skirts because he loves the breeze and whatever. a man who is totally fully leaning into whomever he is on the inside, regardless of what he's wearing, and he wears whatever the fuck he wants to wear because that's just simply what he wants to wear.
Sage Moreaux:I'm just gonna shout out Harry styles right now.'cause I believe that
Zinzi Bree:was literally thinking the same thing. He did a whole article where he was like, in, ballet tights and dresses and just like, it's just fun. I like it.
Sage Moreaux:He is got his boas. I don't know if you've seen that music video where he's part fish, like he does weird stuff and owns it,
Zinzi Bree:yeah,
Sage Moreaux:not a book character, but maybe he could, some, I'm sure there's probably characters based
Zinzi Bree:this episode leans very heavily into pop culture stuff
Sage Moreaux:Yeah.
Zinzi Bree:but So go into our book recs. I don't have a physical copy, but I'm gonna do mine real quick. And I did mention it. So my, book rec for, an enjoyable male lead would be Emily Wild's, encyclopedia of Fairies. Written by, oh no. Oh, no blank. My brain blanked. Nope, it's not gonna come back. Although, Olivia Atwater does Half a Soul, which also has a really interesting, male romantic lead. Again, I'm sorry, I've romantically is where I hang out guys.
Sage Moreaux:I read
Zinzi Bree:it's my corner of the big world. Yeah. Another, I apparently just have a list of recommendations, all of which have male leads that are, Mr. Darcy coded because the other one that's coming to my mind is, Lawrence from His Majesty's Dragon, which is by Naomi Novik. Highly recommend. I've only read the first book in that series. I'm really excited to read the rest of them. It is a slower pace because it follows more of a historical fantasy. But he's a character that I really, enjoy his nobility and his desire to be, responsible and, to be honorable.
Sage Moreaux:I have The Magicians here by Love Grossman, and, the main character's name is Quentin, it's talked about as being like a grownup Harry Potter. There's swearing, there's drug and alcohol use, there's sex. It's about a magic school and it's kind of like a, also got a Narnia theme going on if you haven't read it. I really loved it, but I will say that people either love or hate Quentin. everybody I have who's read it that I talk to has a very strong reaction to him. I find him to be an excellent male protagonist. He's flawed, he is annoying at times. He makes terrible choices. And, it's a trilogy. One of my favorites. the other one I wanted to recommend is a very old high fantasy called, Memory, sorrow and Thorn The first book is called The Dragon Bone Chair. I'm blanking on the author at the moment. the main character Simon, it's a classic, hero's journey. he starts as a young boy and he grows through all of these trials and hardships and, it's so lovely. There's a lot of other main characters too. It is a little bit more slow paced'cause it's traditional, high fantasy, epic, high fantasy. But if the writing is beautiful, if you like, very traditional fantasy, it's a really excellent story. Highly recommend.
Zinzi Bree:What do you got for us, Katherine?
Katherine Suzette:There are so many things I can always recommend. I always end up at this point and I'm like, I've already talked about the ones that I wanna recommend, how about Carry on?
Sage Moreaux:I love Baz.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. The way
Sage Moreaux:that? Yeah.
Katherine Suzette:to support,
Sage Moreaux:Simon. Mm-hmm.
Katherine Suzette:way that Baz chooses Simon and in such a loving and supportive and subtle way good. It's, I think in a lot of the female gaze romantic, we have he'll burn the world down for you and you must choose me and I'll do anything to make you choose me. I want you to be who you are. I want you to choose happiness. I want you to become the best version of you. And if that doesn't involve me, I'm gonna support you in still choosing that version of you, no matter how much it hurts. And I think that's beautiful. It's sad, but it's beautiful. And of course there's a happy ending. It's really good everybody, but, I like the way that the characters encounter their inner struggles and make their choices after and how they deal with consequences of the not so good decisions too,
Sage Moreaux:and I think for the whole trilogy it shows it doesn't just end with, at the end of the trilogy, with them getting together at the very end, it shows how it is to be in relationship when it's difficult. And I really appreciate that, especially for a young, like it's a YA book. So for a younger audience that is reading this, it's a good example of what it means to be in a relationship. Things aren't, it's just not happily ever after. Right. Which is what we get so often.
Katherine Suzette:Yeah. The, relationship doesn't end when you say yes. when you choose the person, when you say, I love you, that's not the end of the end all, be all. So
Zinzi Bree:so many books, so little time. You can find us on social media. We're over on TikTok and Insta and on YouTube. I'm the person who manages it. So you're mostly talking to me. If you wanna go to hold of Sage or Katherine, their stuff is down in our show notes.
Katherine Suzette:our book club, we are about to read The Sword of Kaigen by LM Wang, and I am super excited for this one. I can't wait to chat about it with the ladies. So go pick up the Sword of Kaigen if you want to have read it before you've listened to our episode. But if you don't care about spoilers, you're welcome anytime.
Sage Moreaux:Thank you so much for joining us on another episode of Book Dragon Banter. if you've enjoyed any of our episodes, we would love to hear from you. Let us know what books you're enjoying. If you have recommendations for future book club episodes for us, let us know in the comments.
Zinzi Bree:And thank you so much for listening. See you guys next time.
Sage Moreaux:Bye.
Podcasts we love
Check out these other fine podcasts recommended by us, not an algorithm.
Flights of Fantasy
Flights of Fantasy
Fantasy Fangirls
Fantasy Fangirls
PLOT TWIST
Soman Chainani and Victoria Aveyard
Faithfully Fantasy Podcast
Faithfully Fantasy Podcast
Dear Fantasy Reader
Dear Fantasy Reader
Dragons in the Details: A Romantasy Deep Dive Podcast
Abby and Ronnie