More Than a Mary Sue: Complexity in Female Characters

Welcome back to Book Dragon Banter! Join hosts Sage Moreaux, Katherine, and Zinzi Bree as we dive into the fascinating topic of female main characters (FMCs) in fantasy novels and beyond. While we focus primarily on fantasy, we also touch on other genres and pop culture references to better explain our points. Get ready for an engaging discussion on beloved and controversial FMCs, where we share our favorites, explore the hero's journey versus the heroine's journey, and even mention some FMCs that didn't quite meet our expectations. Don't miss out on our book recommendations and upcoming book club read - The Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang. Grab your headphones, settle in, and let's get started on this journey into the world of compelling female characters!

Linktr.ee: https://linktr.ee/bookdragonbanter 

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Upcoming Bookclub: The Sword of Kaigen by M.L. Wang

https://mlwangbooks.com/

Books Mentioned: 

ACOTAR by Sarah J Maas

Harry Potter by J. K. Rowling

Percy Jackson and The Olympians by Rick Riordan

Throne of Glass by Sarah J Maas

Finlay Donovan Is Killing It by Elle Cosimano

Assistant to the Villain by Hannah Nicole Maehrer

Dealing with Dragons by Patricia C. Wrede

Howl’s Moving Castle by Diana Wynne Jones

The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins

Pride and Prejudice by Jane Austen

When the Moon Hatched by Sarah A. Parker

Twilight by  Stephanie Meyer

Fourth Wing by Rebecca Yarros

Green Fairy Book by Andrew Lang

Pink Fairy Book by Andrew Lang

Foxhole Court by Nora Sakavic

The Cruel Prince by Holly Black

The Lunar Chronicles by Marissa Meyer

Recommended Books: 

The Heroine’s Journey by Gail Carriger

Malice by Heather Walter

This Poison Heart by Kalynn Bayron

Gilded by Marissa Meyer

A Deadly Education by Naomi Novik

00:00 Welcome and Introduction

00:58 Defining Female Main Characters (FMCs)

02:56 Favorite FMCs in Fantasy

04:25 The Bechdel Test and FMCs

07:30 Nostalgic FMCs

13:20 Least Favorite FMCs

26:13 The Mary Sue Trope

27:38 Exploring Self-Inserts in Fan Fiction

28:33 Twilight's Bella: A Mary Sue?

30:18 Compelling vs. Commercial Characters

33:49 The Appeal of Self-Sacrificing Heroines

45:12 The Hero's Journey vs. The Heroine's Journey

51:58 Book Recommendations and Final Thoughts

Transcript

Sage Moreaux: 0:00

Welcome back to Book Dragon Banter. We are so glad to have you with us. I am Sage Moreaux.

Katherine Suzette: 0:05

I am Katherine.

Zinzi Bree: 0:06

I am Zinzi Bree.

Sage Moreaux: 0:06

And today we are gonna be talking about female main characters. and just so you know, we talk about fantasy books mostly, but other genres as well. And we do occasionally jump into other non-book related pop culture references just because sometimes that makes it easier to explain what we're talking about. So, so glad you're here with us and let's get started.

Katherine Suzette: 0:34

And I've got your content warning for today. So if you are in a public setting or you have little ears around, I suggest putting on your headphones.

Zinzi Bree: 0:44

Yes, spoilers. If we're talking about a book, check our description down in our show notes. It lists all the books that we will talk about during this episode. in case you wanna save that, extra juicy storyline for your own reading pleasure instead of hearing about it from us. Okay. So when we are talking about, FMCs, we are talking about female identifying characters.

Sage Moreaux: 1:06

I have a question. how main of a character are we talking about? Because when I was thinking about female characters and books that I really like, I realized that I read a lot of books with male man characters and female, I mean, I read a lot of books with female man characters also, but a, a lot of times maybe there's like multiple kind of lead characters, but the man or the young man is the main character and there's a really awesome woman who is a side character but still very integral to the plot, but maybe doesn't have her own perspective. So that's, I was like, well, are we talking about like she is the main character? It's her perspective?

Zinzi Bree: 1:47

So we're not specifically limiting ourselves to female protagonists, female main characters, but not necessarily

Sage Moreaux: 1:54

female

Zinzi Bree: 1:54

protagonists.

Sage Moreaux: 1:55

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette: 1:56

so today we

Sage Moreaux: 1:57

Okay.

Katherine Suzette: 1:57

FMCs female main characters who are not necessarily the main protagonist. Yes.

Zinzi Bree: 2:05

Well, and ones who are the protagonist, we're just not limiting ourselves to books where the, so for example, Fayre being the main character like we would talk about her. we would talk about Hermione as a female, main character, even though she is not, name isn't on the cover, she's not Harry Potter. A alternative I would say that's got a similar, would be Annabeth from

Sage Moreaux: 2:33

example.

Zinzi Bree: 2:33

Percy Jackson series. She is a main character, but she is not, the main character. Her name isn't in the title. She's not the protagonist

Sage Moreaux: 2:41

one of my favorite. female main characters is from, the, Throne of Glass series. I think I talked about her in a previous episode, is Manon Black Beak, and I really, for that series, she was my favorite character. Celaena or Aelin was cool, fine. but I really loved Manon and I think a part of it was because she wasn't as whiny in my opinion, and she had a little bit more of a gray morality, which I like. And she had this whole great attachment with her wyvern. And it wasn't all about like her and boys all the time, and I really appreciated that about that character. she's not like the lead, but she has a lot of time on the page once she's introduced to the plot.

Zinzi Bree: 3:21

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux: 3:21

And one of the things I like about her, like I said, is that, she's tough. She is like, definitely falls into that kind of action girl's genre of character or, trope of character. And she also is, she's like a badass. She totally gets stuff done. She is classic Sarah J Maas, kind of like tough girl swearing and I don't know, she writes women very similarly, I feel like in most of her books. but the reason I, one of the reasons besides that Manon and is a witch, which I thought was cool, and like their whole iron teeth and iron nails and everything was that. I liked that element. but the fact that most of her relationship was around her Wyvren or the other witches. So most of her, like interactions on the page weren't with a man, which I think is a little bit rare.

Katherine Suzette: 4:11

Totally.

Zinzi Bree: 4:11

would you also say that Manon passes, the Bechdel

Sage Moreaux: 4:15

What's the Bechdel test?

Zinzi Bree: 4:16

yeah. So the Bechdel test is, do your female lead characters have a conversation with another female that does not revolve around a man, whether it's the romantic lead. I was just, I was also seeing the point brought up that it, women, it should also be a conversation that doesn't revolve around

Sage Moreaux: 4:37

family

Zinzi Bree: 4:37

either, that would be the other sort of, I don't necessarily wanna call it a trope, but a another lane that those conversations fall into where two women will have a conversation and the other is talking about like there isn't something else. that they exist for. It's just to prop up your main character or to a mother or a sister or their familial place, is the only other

Sage Moreaux: 5:05

that matters them. I hadn't heard that family part before. That's really great. I would say yes-ish because a lot, I mean, she's mostly interacts with other women and it's the other witches in her coven. So that's a little bit on the line of family because it is her Coven, but they are also. Not necessarily related to her, but she's the leader of that group, so she is the boss of them.

Zinzi Bree: 5:32

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux: 5:32

their interactions aren't always positive, but their conversations generally don't revolve around men. I don't think she's like the most stellar example of female main characters. I just really like her, so.

Katherine Suzette: 5:44

I am thinking of something like

Zinzi Bree: 5:45

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette: 5:45

Donovan is killing

Zinzi Bree: 5:47

I,

Katherine Suzette: 5:47

of situation where we have like two strong female leads that don't necessarily fit, that like write this strong female character kind of trope. But they are supportive of each other. Not a ton of the plot or the conversation revolves around the men, although there are love interests that come in and out. they definitely pass the Bechdel test and it's not just family and stuff, it's usually around how to get away with whatever murder they've committed in that book.

Zinzi Bree: 6:16

I was about to ask, where is Finley Donovan from?

Katherine Suzette: 6:19

Finley

Zinzi Bree: 6:19

it's not a name I know.

Katherine Suzette: 6:20

I don't know who the publisher is, but I'm pretty sure it's a big five.

Zinzi Bree: 6:23

Oh, Finley. Don Donovan is killing it, is the title

Sage Moreaux: 6:25

I've never read it.

Katherine Suzette: 6:26

It's excellent.

Zinzi Bree: 6:27

Oh, cool.

Katherine Suzette: 6:28

it's not fantasy, but I do recommend for one of those summer version of reads that I actually really don't care what season it's in, but, people tend to classify these lighter, funny

Zinzi Bree: 6:40

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 6:40

that way. I think it's excellent.

Zinzi Bree: 6:44

Well, we are fantasy focused, but not exclusive,

Katherine Suzette: 6:46

the

Zinzi Bree: 6:47

that's fine to have in there.

Katherine Suzette: 6:48

version that you find in assistant to the villain, I think that Finley Donovan is killing It is very similar,

Zinzi Bree: 6:55

Ooh.

Katherine Suzette: 6:55

like two female leads. there is one protagonist and she is female, one of those two. And the other one is like very supportive, but she has her own goals. She has her own plot line. She does things that are not necessarily serving the goal of the, main protagonist a lot of the times. So I really appreciate how the author has handled the characters.

Sage Moreaux: 7:15

How about you? Zinzi?? Do you have a

Zinzi Bree: 7:17

I was thinking about this, and I was trying to think how much of them being a favorite is because of nostalgia, because of when I read them and how much is because they are legitimately Female character. one of them is Cimorene from dealing with Dragons, by Patricia c either Reed or Reedy. I've never figured out how to say her last name. and she is a princess that runs away from her kingdom the dragons, and gets hired by a dragon, to be her Chief Cook and librarian. it's the Enchanted Forest Chronicles. Like that is, those are books that partially helped raise me. So like a Cimorene is, formational, as a character. And I love her because she's smart, she's spunky, she's driven. but she's also stubborn. Like that's a flaw for her. She's so stubborn that, you know, she was constantly butting heads with, her family, sometimes with her tutors. With other dragons, what she is in the mountains of morning. sometimes that stubbornness serves her and sometimes it's a detriment. It's both things. And so that's, I think that's wonderful with a flaw is when it goes both ways, and at moments serves the hero or heroine, and at other times causes them problems. so Cimorene, gosh, do I even know her? Does she have a last name? I don't know if she has a last name.

Sage Moreaux: 8:45

With a name like that, you don't really need one. It's a lovely name

Zinzi Bree: 8:50

yeah. Cimorene I listen to it as an audiobook primarily, and the audiobook is fantastic. highly recommend. so my brain is like trying to hear, I hear the narrator's voice in my head, like listing out the, and I'm trying to. It is Cimorene and she doesn't have a last name, but it's of a particular kingdom. Anyway, sorry, that's caveat. So would say Cimorene is probably my favorite, but I do have, another one I really wanted to point out was Sophie from Howl's Moving Castle. as someone who is nurturing, I mean, she joins Howl and Calcifer, and I believe Michael is the name of a wizard who is Howl's apprentice. Who in the movie is like a little kid, but in the book, he's not a little kid. he's a grown person and falls in love with one of her sisters, if I rightly. anyway, Sophie, apparently I admire women who are stubborn because she's also stubborn and handles a whole lot of drama. Like the queen that she is, because Howl is all things dramatic and vain. And, she's such a good foil to that because part of her arc is that she doesn't, she doesn't consider herself beautiful. She doesn't consider herself, as worthy. And she talks to herself that way. And part of the plot is that she ends up cursing herself, essentially into the, having the appearance, appearance of an old woman because she's just, she's decided that's where she's at in her life. and has to come to terms with, okay, that's not true. and that's part of her character arc and part of, you know, you're taking, Her flaw is specifically attached and wrapped up in her arc, and we get to see that played out, and then resolved. But that doesn't mean she becomes flawless. She still has other flaws that still make her an interest in character, even if that particular one, is changed by the end of the

Sage Moreaux: 10:40

That's interesting what you said about nostalgia Because as I was thinking about my list of like, who are my favorite main characters? So Katniss came up for me. I've always loved the Hunger Games. Not exactly fantasy, but, there's a lot of stuff about Katniss that's actually really unlikeable as a character. But I think partially because the book is through her perspective, um, first person perspective, so then you feel a little more attached to her because of that. And I just like, really like her, even though she's kind of a jerk and makes bad choices and is, one of those characters where they hold her up as like being this perfect kind of like, there's a, was a, there's a name for the trope, but like, I mean maybe it's Mary Sue where she's just like, I don't think she's quite falls in that category, but she's like really good at archery. Everybody thinks that she's like this amazing. Emblem of the revolution and she is conflicted. she can't figure out what she's trying to do. She's scared all the time. A lot of the situations where like she does things from the goodness of her heart and that's what helps her succeed. But she's not just on point constantly. So I guess that's maybe, I don't know what the exact definition of a Mary Sue is, but I always think of it as being somebody that's kind of perfect, really good at everything.

Zinzi Bree: 11:57

All right, we will get it. So part of the research that I was doing in preparation for this episode was on Mary Sues and some of that stuff. We will get into that, but I wanna hear Katherine's, favorite female main character since you, Sage has offered one and I've offered one. have one?

Katherine Suzette: 12:11

It's gonna be Elizabeth and Pride and Prejudice, like, sorry to like be classic, but I, I love

Sage Moreaux: 12:19

Love it.

Katherine Suzette: 12:20

flaws. I love that the characters choose each other and like get over things and development. It's subtle, but it's excellent. there is no perfect character. just good vibes all around for me. so yeah, it's not fantasy, but if I had to choose a female main character that is my favorite all time, it'll be Elizabeth from Pride and Prejudice.

Sage Moreaux: 12:44

Love it.

Zinzi Bree: 12:45

So Katherine, while doing research, one of the videos that I watched is by, a YouTuber, Abby Emmons. I she does a character breakdown Here's your female lead character. What would Jane do? here's how Jane Austen got it right with her female leads and, what you should do because over here's the example of, of what went wrong with, a particular character. Those are good videos. do you guys have a hated FMC where you're just like, every time they showed up in the book, whether even if it was a protagonist or it was a side character where you're just like, I just, I just wanna skip this person. I don't know why they're talking

Katherine Suzette: 13:22

yeah, but my brain tends to just kind of forget them. I will say that there is, pop fiction books where you have an OP-ed FMC or a Mary Sue FMC or a like flat arc, pinball to the plot. FMC, nobody's gonna rip on but like Bella.

Zinzi Bree: 13:45

We will talk about her

Katherine Suzette: 13:46

don't love. I will even go so far as to say, please don't hate me. Fayre is a little bit like that. I definitely got tired of her, not just once. doesn't mean the, ACOTAR series is not worth your time. Just saying she's not my favorite.

Sage Moreaux: 14:01

She is on my list too, for one of my least favorite main characters. And I love those books. Like I find them to be my guilty pleasure. Right? Like, it's not like the most amazing, but I will, I've reread them, I've read them and I've reread them, and she like, she throws up constantly. She whines a lot. She kind of gets on my nerves. I do like that she's an artist.

Katherine Suzette: 14:22

She kind of stops that at some point when she becomes completely obsessed with, the eventual male lead. Right.

Sage Moreaux: 14:29

But she gets back to it, but she starts thinking about painting him naked and stuff like this. Right. it's inspirational,

Zinzi Bree: 14:33

I very distinctly remember a whole scene where she was painting in there, like they knock over the paints that are covered in paint while they're getting busy. So,

Sage Moreaux: 14:42

Yeah,

Zinzi Bree: 14:43

painting

Sage Moreaux: 14:43

yeah,

Zinzi Bree: 14:43

the painting continues.

Sage Moreaux: 14:45

I also read a romantic sea called, when the Moon Hatched, which fairly recent, super long. And I didn't like the main character's name is Rave and she has a similar, which is a cool name, but she has a similar kind of style of being super tough and super kind of foul mouth as a lot of the Sarah J Maas characters, which she's really cocky and she just rubbed me the wrong way the whole time and I didn't know like there wasn't enough empathy maybe that I felt for the character.'cause she kind of has this classic vibe that I get from a lot of. Women characters in more recent romantic fantasy with kind of badass women, and I just don't like their brawler attitude. maybe it's just that it's overdone, but she was like, worse than Feyre. Put it like that.

Zinzi Bree: 15:39

I will also comment that this feels like it's very much in romantasy, particularly, where it feels like, our female leads are dudes with boobs. Like the equivalent personality is a guy could be doing the same thing. We just decided to give this character boobs and,

Sage Moreaux: 15:59

Long hair.

Zinzi Bree: 16:00

is happening.

Katherine Suzette: 16:00

that a step further good gender benders and like, oh, okay. Then there's like an extra element.

Zinzi Bree: 16:05

the,

Sage Moreaux: 16:05

Definitely

Zinzi Bree: 16:06

interesting.

Katherine Suzette: 16:07

where the big character, the FMC, the was like this. I was like, okay, it's still super entertaining, but it's never going to, like, she's never gonna live in my heart because it was super unrelatable. She was good at everything

Zinzi Bree: 16:19

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 16:21

and it was so surprising to the male lead the romantic interest that like, he just couldn't get over how different she was and how unique she was. And just because she was like masculine, I mean, she stood up for a lot of feminine values, but

Zinzi Bree: 16:36

am not like other girls

Sage Moreaux: 16:37

I feel like this.

Katherine Suzette: 16:38

dressed like a badass. Like I loved it, loved her, her look and like her values, but couldn't get over the fact that it was so easy to feel completely unrelatable to the FMC.

Sage Moreaux: 16:51

I feel like this is a little bit this, this. Trend is a little bit of like what went wrong with feminism of the idea of like, women can be the same as men, so we can, be in the workplace while raising our kids. And we can, not to say that that's not a great thing, but it's just kind of like, how can we make ourselves like men as opposed to how can we make ourselves empowered, be able to have the same level of, power in jobs and salary, et cetera, while also still maintaining a level of vulnerability. And how can men become more vulnerable as well? Like instead of women becoming like men, how can we kind of dovetail together? And so this is like a classic example of just women being like men to be cool and badass. Like where are the badass women that are soft and vulnerable?

Katherine Suzette: 17:45

For

Sage Moreaux: 17:45

tough.

Katherine Suzette: 17:46

again, it's a TV show. Sorry, I guess my brain is locked into that today. But, think of like arcane or, penny Dreadful. I love the female characters in those and they are definitely strong and badass and they are distinctly leaning into their feminism. I definitely think like in arcane there's some, like crossing the non-binary with at least one of the FMCs, but she never like questions the fact that she's a, she, she just like embraces all of her and dislikes and, and everybody else can go, you know, what themselves, if they don't,

Zinzi Bree: 18:20

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 18:20

if they care at all about

Sage Moreaux: 18:22

Care at all.

Katherine Suzette: 18:23

her choices. and I am so into females who just. Choose to be themselves. I don't wanna say like they have to lean into their femininity. I also don't think they have to lean into masculinity in order to be accepted as equals. and also be the stay at home wife and mother and have the full-time job and do all the things because that's just, ruining humans in general. trying to accomplish all of that so unhealthy.

Sage Moreaux: 18:50

Yeah, I agree with you a hundred percent like being yourself and it's characters that are unique individuals. I love that. Versus the same kind of cookie cutter character. It's slapped in a new plot. Zinzi Did you have a hated main character? I'm so curious.

Zinzi Bree: 19:06

I'm sure I do, but I probably couldn't name them because I just skipped them. Like there's, and I, if they start monologuing, if they start talking, if it's like, oh, this is, but like I will straight up do that in TV shows too. If, a character comes on that I'm like, I am not interested in your little side story, that's just filling up time. I don't got time for this. I will fast forward through you so. I don't know that I can name a hated one. There is a particular book that's a dragon book that came up before and now having researched, female main characters and Mary Sues and self inserts. the main character in that particular book is all of that in an awful way.

Katherine Suzette: 19:50

Is it popular right now?

Zinzi Bree: 19:52

but I can't remember her name. It's popular on, it is a romantic, it's popular on BookTok. I can't say that it's like in the top 10 of people's lists or anything. so this particular character, though I can't remember her name, in her book, she is Queen also a trained assassin, also goes out and hunts the food for her people. it, there were, she had like five jobs that she had to do. All of them. She was doing well. And also she's like 19 maybe or tw like

Sage Moreaux: 20:28

Overachiever.

Katherine Suzette: 20:28

Well, impossible.

Zinzi Bree: 20:31

Um, I was, yes. Impossible. It's one of the few books that I've d Nfd I've had this complaint before where if you have a female who is a warrior who is in a fight scene with a bunch of guys, you need to know that this. Woman has either spent the last decade of her life training or has magic that allow, if she hasn't had that amount of training, has magic that evens the odds for her in a fight scene. Because, I have trained in the martial arts. I am, around a hundred pounds I have done fighting, in the context of safe environments in dojos and things like that. it makes me so mad that you can train for six months and beat men that have been training their whole life, who weigh 200 pounds more than you do. It just drives me batty. And I don't necessarily want a heroine who, that's how she wins is in hand to hand combat where she slays her enemy. to me, that is not the feminism I want represented. That's not what I

Sage Moreaux: 21:44

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree: 21:44

strong woman is. I would much rather see. The case of Violet from Fourth Wing, I respect her as a character because she is weaker. She knows that she's weaker. She uses her smarts, she gathers poisons. She works at the kitchen so she can time exactly when she poisons her classmates so that when she goes into fights with them, she can win by default because they're too

Sage Moreaux: 22:11

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Bree: 22:11

sometimes, you know, she learns Jack's allergy. Yeah, she's clever, she's smart. She's, using not her. Oh, I can be as tough as these guys, like, you know. and she, when she does try to do it without that intelligence, without poisoning beforehand, like she fails, she loses the fights. I mean, she also loses fights to, what's his face? but he can read her intentions, so like that's not a fair fight anyway. a stronger woman is someone who is not using the masculine equipment of I can, I can pick up a sword, I can train and I can fight as hard as them. other pet peeve of mine is you do that, you spend a decade training like your body, you're not gonna be some curvy luscious. Like, that's, that's not how bodies work. Like you will have muscles, you will be strong, and I would rather have an author. write about that. Say you're a female, who's got an Amazonian build. Like, that's, that's a type, that's Wonder Woman. so pop culture, wonder Woman is a fantastic representation of a strong woman. And part of the reason it had such good commercial success is because it had the range of yes, she's strong, but also she's smart. ability to fight comes from, love and from the emotions that she's shown and grown with throughout the movie. Um, I'm realized, I've just talked for a really long time, time guys,

Sage Moreaux: 23:44

Well, you're reminding me of, and again, this is a movie, but in Black Panther there is the battle scene with Black Panther versus cousin, But anyways, they do like the battle to the death. I think it's supposed to be to the death. Like that's a classic male dominance trope, especially historically. Right? or even like boxing and this kind of thing. And so that is an example of female main characters that are kind of thrust into this masculine plot arc where the only way they're able to show themselves as being successful is by having physical prowess. Right? So

Zinzi Bree: 24:22

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux: 24:23

that's, I love a main character or a female character that is physically strong and agile and tough and all of these things. But if that's all that she is, it feels redundant and it does feel like, like, yeah, sure. The first time that I read a book like that great. But after that, it's, that's not what I'm looking for in my female main characters. And I agree with Z, like being smart, being clever, being empathetic, And caring, not necessarily always in a motherly way, but also just caring as a, you know, because of being a human caring for other humans that way. I mean, there's the right, there's the classic Save the Cat, plot theory that, is often used in, in storytelling. And one of the reason it's called Save the Cat is because the hero saves a cat to show that they're a likable person, right? So it doesn't just have to be a woman, it could be a man, but you want your main character to be empathetic and to be a kind, caring person in some sort of way. and that doesn't necessarily always lead to being a badass on the field in the physical realm.

Katherine Suzette: 25:29

Totally that, that's actually making me think of an MMC trope where like they're, they're super scary on the outside, but they're cinnamon are on the inside, but only for the FMC and like love that. But in our characters, we need to relate to them. They need to have some kind of relatable flaw and limits to their abilities to stay relatable and then. We've gotta be able to emphasize, and that generally means they've gotta have some level of empathy in some way.

Zinzi Bree: 25:58

all right, let's talk about, Mary Sues, learned, actually come from Star Trek fan fiction,

Sage Moreaux: 26:06

love it. Check you over here.

Zinzi Bree: 26:08

the history of the Mary Sue character is that a fan fiction that was written of Star Trek and had a character named Mary Sue. Mary Sue was, loved by everybody on the ship. the whole crew loved her. she could do no wrong. She didn't really have flaws'cause she was so perfect and so lovable. the plot bent itself in half so that she, could save the day. she had the skills. she could steer the ship. She could fix the

Sage Moreaux: 26:42

Totally believable.

Zinzi Bree: 26:44

Can do all the things. So that's, uh, that is a Mary Sue versus a self insert, which is a character that is, the author putting themselves or putting in a idealized version of themself into a story, or creating a story that is wrapped around, their preferred of events.

Sage Moreaux: 27:07

Well, I was wondering if you have some examples of self inserts.'cause I'm very curious about that one. I think as a writer it's hard. Like I feel like the book I'm writing right now has a main character that's a boy and a main character that's a girl. And I feel like there's aspects of myself in both of those characters. And also they're not me. So it's not like an idealized version of myself except that I wish I had magic. So there's that. But are there like really clear examples that you can think of or you.

Zinzi Bree: 27:34

I don't know that there's really clear examples of self inserts of fan fiction where you're like, Hey, I'm myself of a book version of myself over here interacting with. Percy Jackson or, Edward and Edward's now in love with me instead of in love with or whatever. Um, or Jacob. that

Sage Moreaux: 27:58

Yeah,

Zinzi Bree: 27:58

like Edward

Sage Moreaux: 27:59

I didn't read that one.

Zinzi Bree: 27:59

instead of Bella.

Katherine Suzette: 28:00

been great.

Zinzi Bree: 28:01

Might have been a better story there. I'm sure there's fanfictions about that. but I mean, that would've been, you know, level of compelling because then it's, you know, that

Sage Moreaux: 28:10

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 28:10

vampire, thing that is, I mean, there are books about that. So I'm trying to think, bringing up Twilight in particular. Bella is a poor thing. Bella is such a lovely, the example of what feels like to me a Mary Sue,

Sage Moreaux: 28:26

Oh my God.

Zinzi Bree: 28:27

so passive. Like constantly getting saved by Edward or. By Jacob. She's, I mean, she sometimes actively makes the decision to put herself in danger, so they will come, one of them will come save her. because that's the only way she could get, I think it was Edward's attention at the time.

Sage Moreaux: 28:47

How could you not put yourself in danger? He is so beautiful. I feel like that's the line that was repeated over and over in that book. He's just so beautiful. He's so gorgeous.

Katherine Suzette: 28:55

You

Sage Moreaux: 28:56

From Bella's perspective.

Zinzi Bree: 28:57

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 28:57

Defense of Twilight, because that book was number one, really influential on society number two, especially for younger minds. and number three, the story was meant to be told according to Stephanie Meyer. like, as if it's through Edward's perspective, but it's like Bella doing the things. I guess I was a little bit confused about that, but, okay, Stephanie, that's, that's fine respect to her writing style.

Zinzi Bree: 29:23

Well, she has midnight sun, like she wrote Midnight Sun. There's an entire book now that is from Edwards perspective.

Sage Moreaux: 29:30

I will say when I read Twilight, I like obsessively stayed up all night reading it and it was pretty new at that point. it does drive me crazy that Bella is so passive. I think of all my examples of characters that I like are really active characters that, have a lot of agency. And even if their agency trends towards the masculine, sometimes at least they're doing something.

Katherine Suzette: 29:49

Yeah.

Sage Moreaux: 29:49

the damsel in distress, it falls too much in line with like old fairy tales of the princess in the castle or the dragon's layer needing, waiting to be rescued. that just drives me a little bit crazy.

Katherine Suzette: 30:01

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 30:03

I think there's a major difference between a character that is compelling and a character that is commercial. Like Bella commercial, she's easy to sell. Disney princesses are commercial. They're easy to sell. They are so sanitized that they are a safe character that is on first glance because they don't have, you know, they don't have flaws. They don't have things that turn them off necessarily until they interact with other characters. So they are more, and I would say this even about Feyre. and there's commercial success with her, where they've been widowed down to being as likable as possible, As little as possible about them is a turnoff. versus a character who's compelling. Like to me, Bella is not compelling. Feyre is not very compelling. there's a lack of complexity to them that you see in more memorable characters, and that's because they are compelling, because as we talked about, they, show a range of flaws and growth and have things about them that are likable, habits or traits, but that makes them feel more real as a person because nobody is perfect. Nobody is, fully likable all the time. Part of why I would argue that Bella is a Mary Sue is because, except for the bad guy, vampires, nobody dislikes her.

Sage Moreaux: 31:40

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 31:40

the werewolves go to bat for her just as much as the vampires do. Mary Sue quality in Feyre is that she gets every power of the High Lords. she's all in one. She gets all the magic. she gets remade into an elf. She gets training, but her training takes six months to be the equivalent of the elites that, rice sand has at his, at his disposal for. the fights that they have or the war that they have upcoming with the, like the king across the sea or whatever it is. but making them simple sometimes makes it easier for a mass majority of people to attach to them, attach feelings to them, to look at them and go, oh, I feel like I resonate with this character, because there isn't anything particularly bad about them that turns you off from resonating,

Sage Moreaux: 32:36

Except for all the vomiting.

Zinzi Bree: 32:38

right?

Sage Moreaux: 32:38

Sorry. No, I agree with you. And it's also a challenge. Like you don't wanna have your character so flawed that they're not likable.'cause people might not keep reading. Right. And if you're ultimately trying to write a book that people read, you want people to read the whole book and the whole series. So flaws help make a character relatable. But too many flaws, too much baggage. It kind of does the opposite, even if that might be more realistic, right? Like we all have more than one flaw. or the flaw of self-sacrifice for family. That's like a flaw. And also not that, that's kind of like a, I'm thinking of favor, right? She's starving and she gives all her food to the, you know, she goes out and hunts and she gives her the food to her sisters who are super mean to her, and she kind of sacrifices everything for them, which is a flaw in some ways, but is also very noble in these other ways. So it's like these flaws that are very likable.

Katherine Suzette: 33:34

It is interesting how much of our current perceptions of good female leads and characters are based on some of these Disney characters and they're all so self-sacrificing and like Beauty and the Beast is probably gonna be one of my favorite trope for forever, to be fair. But she's so noble and so self-sacrificing,

Zinzi Bree: 33:56

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 33:58

don't, I'll, I'll take your place. I'll go live in this, dungeon for forever and everything and then, you know, turns into a romance or Cinderella. Like she gets the one night of her life that isn't spent serving her abusive family. And that's what changes everything. And she becomes. eventual queen. We like to think of the country and so much

Zinzi Bree: 34:22

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 34:22

see is based on that. And that's kinda where our favorite started is like the classic beauty on the Beast story. And then it just kind of developed from there. And I, guess I need to, pay a little bit more attention to what, the authors RJ Mass says about how these books developed and everything. because they definitely take a turn in like say book three-ish or whatever, where like she's like, oh, this is working. Let's add like a whole lot more. Let's add in some other arcs and things going on in the background and whatnot, which is great. obviously we love AAR and it's famous and it's amazing. but it's, it's, I don't, it's just interesting to see how these particular like bass tropes have, defined so much of what has come out of our expectations with female leads.

Sage Moreaux: 35:04

I definitely grew, grew up, like reading a lot of fairytales and loving. I would read fairytales from other countries and I, would read those, Andrew Lang's, like Green Fairy book and take fairy book. And it's true that as a young girl, I didn't necessarily like think too hard about the messages or the role models that I was getting from some of these characters. a lot of the women are fairly passive in there, or, rescued or things come really easily to them. They just need to do one thing right by whatever the, like do the thing for three nights in a row or whatever, and you become, princess or queen of the land. Terribly realistic, but it is a lot of what girls are kind of spoon fed as young, young girls. I mean, I'll say I love Moana so much, because I think she's a little bit different than the other Disney princesses that I grew up with. She's definitely more sassy.

Katherine Suzette: 36:06

Love this

Sage Moreaux: 36:06

and she is,

Zinzi Bree: 36:09

Can I ask you though, what, what is a flaw that Moana has

Sage Moreaux: 36:13

great question. She does. She's, yeah, I, um, totally, she doesn't, I mean, her hair gets in her face a lot.

Katherine Suzette: 36:23

That's relatable,

Sage Moreaux: 36:25

She doesn't wanna be the chief. She doesn't wanna be the chief. She doesn't wanna listen to her parents. I mean, that's not a flaw. That's like a teenage character. She's a teenager. So that's like an attribute that is part of growing up.

Zinzi Bree: 36:39

Also, I take issue with, Ariel and Moana and any, any character that is like rebelling against the parents is. That's, I sorry, I have extra words that like, follow up that sentence, but rebelling against your parents, I don't think should be like, as you were saying, Sage, that's teenage dumb.

Sage Moreaux: 37:04

Yes.

Zinzi Bree: 37:04

flaw.

Sage Moreaux: 37:05

That's not like your whole plot.

Zinzi Bree: 37:07

a more interesting flaw. Is so I feel like a little bit Moana where, if they had explored more her questioning if she deserved to be chief, if she wanted, like the bit that they have is, do I wanna be chief? Oh no, but the

Sage Moreaux: 37:26

Mm-hmm.

Zinzi Bree: 37:27

calling me. but there wasn't like a, could I handle being chief? Like, is this, didn't get self-doubt from her and I, I feel like. that would've been better storytelling maybe for her to have some of that doubt expressed and then through this adventure, have that, more easily seen as something where she grew through that self-doubt and went,

Sage Moreaux: 37:50

Yeah, and I would say her character arc is fairly flat and Maui actually has more of the flaw of being very full of hubris. And he goes through the character arc of losing understanding. You know, he has like this dark past and stuff. So he definitely has a much more interesting character arc, even though he isn't the main character. Yeah, that's a very good point. She's like a Mary Sue and yeah, she's super good at at, she can sail the boat all of a sudden. I mean, I guess she probably learned to swim growing up on the island, but she's very good at swimming. She's exceedingly brave. I do still love it.

Katherine Suzette: 38:28

Fair

Sage Moreaux: 38:29

There's no man like other than Maui, Maui is like her friend. I never felt like there was a love interest between them, so I did appreciate that.

Katherine Suzette: 38:36

know.

Zinzi Bree: 38:38

Yep.

Katherine Suzette: 38:38

you just pointed out the dark past of Maui, and that tends to come with a lot of our characters that have a lot of growth these days is like, how much more trauma can we insert into their past in order to give them something to get over and like, okay, it happens. Absolutely. There are some, really dark experiences in our world and like darker than, than I even know at this point. And there's so much fucked up with humanity, but not every character is going to have that level of an abusive or traumatic experience past kind of thing. Like, foxhole court, it's not fantasy there are some really traumatic pasts in there. Really matter for the character's development and growth at their eventual conclusion and development. And they never turn into perfect characters, but they definitely turn into characters who accept their, their quirks and their problems and everything, and like continue to work on them. whereas, like I don't wanna just harp on Sarah J Mass, but again, like back to Throne a glass, like the characters never really think about their own problems. Or if they do, they're like, oh, but I have a reason for that. Like,'cause I was in assassin. so like, deal with it.

Sage Moreaux: 39:54

I would actually disagree because I felt like Book three of Throne of Glass, Selena goes through like this very dark, kind of like when she goes from being Selena, the assassin to becoming back to her original Alinea, her original princess self.

Katherine Suzette: 40:11

Okay. Fair enough.

Sage Moreaux: 40:13

Hard life to be. Now I'm a queen. But she, that book is like her processing. And the first time I read it I was like, I didn't really like that book. And then I reread it, I was like, actually, I think this might be the best one, because there is that her like facing a lot of her past and having to overcome stuff, but then so that she can then go back to being kind of like the perfect savior of the world. Right. Um,

Katherine Suzette: 40:39

do

Sage Moreaux: 40:39

so it does, I do think it touches on it. I, you know,

Zinzi Bree: 40:43

Savior for people.

Katherine Suzette: 40:45

You know,

Sage Moreaux: 40:45

yeah.

Katherine Suzette: 40:46

me back to the fact that you

Zinzi Bree: 40:47

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette: 40:48

the Cruel Prince so much and I dnf it. Twice. I kind of feel like I should go back and like get somewhere with that, with like some like enlightened perspective now that we've had some conversations and stuff about it. Like I feel like opinions might change with some additional perspectives. Like I had some very distinct perspectives on how, violet was handled in Fourth Wing that after a good long conversation with you guys and a good long conversation with another, bookish friend that I'm like, okay, alright, I can accept these things. Now that doesn't mean that I think that they're perfectly handled, but I understand, and really my problem came down a lot more to the coded character and the fact that she still pushes through and always makes it somehow

Zinzi Bree: 41:30

you took issue, not with her character, but with the Dos Machina, the God in the machine, here's the author coming to save the day for the character instead of the character being

Sage Moreaux: 41:39

I think,

Katherine Suzette: 41:39

I,

Zinzi Bree: 41:39

themselves.

Katherine Suzette: 41:40

her

Sage Moreaux: 41:40

yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 41:41

to have someone else save them.

Katherine Suzette: 41:42

don't get me wrong, but there were some things that still bother me, but I'm a lot more open to that now, and I feel like if I went back and reread it, I would enjoy it on a different level. My opinions may not change, but my joy of it might, I may not be so locked in on that one problem.

Sage Moreaux: 41:58

I think there's also like reading. You can read something and enjoy it even though there's flaws to it and there's like the suspension of disbelief around a lot of that stuff. To me, the kind of like character always succeeding in that kind of way, especially in like more of a high fantasy, is similar to what you might get out of a cozy read where. it's a happily ever after. You have this tragic backstory and life is all these horrible things happen and everything, but you're gonna come out of it. Okay. And, and that's comforting. And I hate sad endings. I don't like reading books with sad endings. And my daughter really likes books with sad endings. And we always, I'm like, no, I just won't, Rita, I don't wanna cry at the end. I mean, if I'm crying, whatever, but I don't wanna like cry at the end because it's super sad. I want a happy ending. And so some of that with high fantasy is like, you know. Yes, I pulled the sword out of the stone and I slayed the dragon and we all, yeah, okay, some people died, but we're all good now and the kingdom goes on and we don't have to talk about how I'm actually gonna handle poverty or, making sure that all of the workers in the fields have like a say in matter. We're just gonna go with suspension of disbelief. So it's different a little bit from the perspective of a writer and how you wanna present things and then just being like a reader for fun. so there's reading for fun and then there's reading for craft or for analyzation, and those are definitely, I definitely get a different enjoyment.

Katherine Suzette: 43:24

fair.

Sage Moreaux: 43:24

Like the Cruel Prince, for example, that you said, like the characters are not likable. I really love Holly Black's writing style is one thing. And I do feel like you have to read all three to fully get the whole plot. but they're not likable characters. They do mean things and so like, yeah. I'm not holding that up as like this paragon of these amazing characters. It's just I really enjoyed it.

Katherine Suzette: 43:46

Okay. So for that matter, after speaking with this particular client who was actually like, actually let's talk about Twilight, because there were some positive takeaways. I do want to go back and reread that series simply from the craft perspective, because it did work. I mean, it became famous, it changed a lot of our literature. It, it added to that change. It got bundled up like right before all this RG mass stuff, right after all the HP stuff. You know, it did work. And some of that comes down to marketing and publishing and all of that. And a lot of that has to do with how the writer handled a lot of these things. the, it did create massive societal, um, change or in, in expectations with our literature and so that's entirely fair. there's this other thing you mentioned that you never figure out how some of these characters handle like, oh, let's actually fix poverty and stuff like that. And that is actually something that really irritates me. I can fall in love with a character at the beginning and like get totally behind them.'cause they're like coming from the trenches. They do have a traumatic past and then they end up in the queen seat and they're obsessed with the male lead. And that's it.

Sage Moreaux: 44:56

Yep.

Katherine Suzette: 44:56

What do we call that?

Zinzi Bree: 44:57

I don't know that there's a trope that specifically, but, I feel like this is a good segue into the difference between a hero's journey and a heroin's journey. A heroin's journey. because a lot of it, so with romantic, you're getting a, they end up with the lead there, or the lead who's probably the king or the prince or the general or something. And, and now she's also the queen or, um, got shared rulership or whatever, and the world revolves around, her spouse. Uh, got that version, which I think comes out of the hero's journey where, okay, so a difference between the hero's journey and. I'm gonna use. I'm excited. I've been sitting on this and thinking about this. I'm gonna move my mic. I'm gonna soapbox here for a second and I'm sorry that this is a girl's episode, but I'm gonna talk about two male main characters. Okay? So, yeah, thanks for the shocked face, sage. I feel like a really good example of this is the difference between Frodo and Aragon in the Lord of the Rings. So Frodo is the, example of a hero's journey with what he goes on. At the end of his story is bittersweet. he ends up alone. the journey has changed him so much. He does not fit back into society the way that he did. Versus Aragon, who's got, in my opinion, a heroine's journey where he starts out isolated and through the fellowship gains allies through, going through the story that he does, continues to gain allies in Rohan, goes to, condor, goes and gets the, takes up the deal with the ghost King, who's my mind is gonna blank on, but like his, and hi, the majority of his story is he's going and getting allies. He's networking. and yes, he does end up as king at the end, but he's made all of these connections. He's made all of this networking when, you know, he takes that seat as king because he has those allies, you know, he's it, he's gonna do a good job. the hero's journey is about. Succeeding through networking, succeeding through found family, succeeding through connection versus the hero's journey is succeeding in isolation, succeeding because you've sacrificed something, succeeding because, you went it alone and you gave up on this other thing that you were hoping for, to win the day. Frodo and Aragon are those two things. And I love that it's in one book.

Sage Moreaux: 47:41

Is my favorite character of all time.

Zinzi Bree: 47:43

I,

Sage Moreaux: 47:46

I didn't even realize that about the heroin's journey aspect of it.

Zinzi Bree: 47:49

Mm-hmm. my book recommendation for off of this podcast is actually nonfiction. It is going to be Gail Carer's, the Hero Wins Journey, where it does fantastic breakdowns on what the hero journey is and how, that story is different and separate from the Hero's journey. also how it's commercially viable, which was cool to see. she explains how Harry Potter is actually a heroin's journey, even though Harry is a male character, she goes into, it's not gender specific, it's the journey that they go on. Just like, I think Aragon has a hero's journey in the Lord of the Rings as opposed to a hero's journey. even though he's a male character, it doesn't matter which gender you are, you can have either version of a story. the stories that I am personally drawn to are heroine journeys, ones with found family, ones with connections, one where your, female lead succeeds as a general who is able to And I think that's a person who, at the end of the story, if they're sitting on the throne, you think they're gonna be a successful queen, they're gonna be a successful ruler because you've already seen them in action delegating and lifting up other people

Katherine Suzette: 49:04

Did.

Zinzi Bree: 49:04

and other characters who, have their specialty. Yeah. And she acknowledges their specialty and she, she doesn't fall into the Mary Sue of, oh, well I can do that and I can do this, and I can do this other thing over here. It's, no, I recognize your ability to fulfill this role. Okay? You are now my advisor. You are now my military general. You are now my, head librarian. You are my spy master. that's, a believable kingdom. Here's my head of sanitary works, who, knows how to make sure that plumbing is happening in the castle and in the entire city. Like those, they're important roles for world, world building. but anyway, that's my point being to Katherine is that if it's a hero wins journey, then at the end of their story, I can believe that they're gonna be a successful ruler because they know how to delegate and they've made the connections versus a hero's journey where they get to the end and they're like, oh, well they've got the king there. And his love interest is the end all and be all, but I have the title of Queen and I'm badass now, or I was badass this whole time and now you see how badass I am. I feel like particularly in romantic, there's a lot of stories that are like, I start out being badass. I'm showing you I'm badass. Hey, now everybody knows I'm badass.

Sage Moreaux: 50:23

That sounds like a great storyline.

Katherine Suzette: 50:26

yeah, I would read it.

Sage Moreaux: 50:27

Badass. It's badass.

Katherine Suzette: 50:29

I've been, so obsessed with writing

Zinzi Bree: 50:31

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette: 50:31

for so long that when I was like transition between middle school and high school, I don't even remember when it was'cause I was getting homeschooled at the time. I went to a writing conference at that age and. these other authors in the room started asking me like what I liked and didn't like in books. And the one thing I said I really hated is a character that made me believe in their strength and their ability to make choices for themselves, their agency and their, their wittiness and snark and all of that. And then after they end up in a relationship, they just kind of soften and change and their priorities change and all of that. And like I accept that when a human enters a relationship with another human, some of those, traits will become. Different, they will have compromises in them. They will soften, perhaps, but not all of them. And I felt like that character completely changed and I, I lost all interest that character. And that was, unfortunately, the series did end that way. That is how it completed, her, that, that MCs arc and that, that I was particularly referring to.

Zinzi Bree: 51:41

Oh no.

Katherine Suzette: 51:42

hate is when that happens. but okay, here for my recommendations, unfortunately both of my recommendations are ongoing series. So I apologize if I have said I hate something and then I give you a book that in the end it's gonna end up that way. But I don't think so. I think the writing is excellent in these books.

Zinzi Bree: 51:59

Do you trust the author?

Katherine Suzette: 52:00

I, you know, if I end up wrong, you know, forgive me because I'm human. So my first one is malice by, Heather Walter. Heather Walter is the author of Malice and her second book has just come out. definitely go and check that out if you like Retellings of like the bad characters and the novels and not just the princesses. So like if you like Maleficent, go check out Malice or if you like Wicked. And then this Poison Heart by Kaylyn Baron. I think that one's really great too. That one's more Ya lots of diversity rap in both of those novels. and I'm really excited for book two on that one as well. It's also either just come out or is about to come out, and I'm really excited because this character is quirky and sassy and she makes mistakes and her friends have to tell her off sometimes. And her parents, she goes against them sometimes and it doesn't turn out well. And sometimes it does, but there's agency involved and I love that.

Sage Moreaux: 53:00

All right. I have two book recommendations also. The first one is Gilded by Marissa Meyer. It's a Duology, and both books are out. The second one is behind me called Cursed. Marissa Meyer is the author of the Lunar Chronicles. Cinder and Cress which I really enjoyed. it's like a futuristic Cinderella retelling. But this is a, Rumpelstiltskin retelling, which I have never seen anyone else do before. The reason that I chose this for today's episode is because the main character in it, Ilda, she is not a fighter. She is more, she takes care of children. She's a young woman there. It's a young adult novel, but she takes care of children. She is kind of like a softer version of a heroin, but she is also extremely strong and like mentally and emotionally strong. And there's a little bit more of like A nurturer element to her. and I really loved that that could be the kind of character that was presented in a young adult fantasy. instead of a strong fighter type of woman, she's a storyteller. She is, getting by on her wits. And then my other recommendation, I think I recommended it before, is the sc Man's trilogy by Naomi Novik. And she, the first one is a deadly education. And the reason I bring that up again, is because I think the main character in it, especially in the first book, her name's Gori and I think she undergoes a heroin's journey. She starts out as a loner. people don't like her'cause she gives off these like evil vibes. So she's very much on her own in this magic school. And over time she networks with other people. She kind of creates this found family for herself. And only through that does she succeed to graduation. So, both ya fantasy, highly recommend both of those.

Zinzi Bree: 54:47

Awesome. You can find us on social media. I am the person who is responding to you, so I will see your comments and I'm the one who responds. if you want to get a hold of Katherine or Sage, you can do so by looking in our description, and clicking on the links to their personal stuff, to Sage's Substack, or to Katherine's website. our next book club read is the Sword of Kaigen, by LM Wong. I'm very excited about this. so please, pick up a copy for yourself, listen on audiobook, whatever your preferred, way, participating is. join us, later this month when, we get into the details and talk all about it. And, and break it down and flip it up and just, and dig into it. Your ratings mean the world to us so, please give us a rating and, thank you so much for listening. you next time. Bye guys.