Did Marketing Make You Read It?

Welcome back to Book Dragon Banter, a podcast where hosts Zinzi Bree, Katherine, and Sage discuss all things books. In this episode, they delve into how marketing influences book choices, discussing their approaches to picking books, mood reading, and the effectiveness of marketing tactics. They also explore controversial marketing, book ratings and reviews, and the rise of graphic novels. Along the way, they share their perspectives on popular books like 'Silver Elite' and 'The Hunger Games,' and recommend a few of their favorite reads. Join the conversation and discover how marketing shapes our reading habits!

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Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/

Books Mentioned:

The Author’s Guide to Murder by Karen White, Beatriz Williams, and Lauren Willig

Silver Elite by Dani Francis

The Hunger Games by Suzanne Collins

The Irresistible Urge to Fall for Your Enemy by Brigitte Knightley

Draco Malfoy and the Mortifying Ordeal of Being in Love by Isthisselfcare

Rose in Chains by Julie Soto

The Auction by Julie Soto

Alchemized by SenLinyu

Manacled by SenLinyu

Carry On by Rainbow Rowell

Heartless Hunter by  Kristen Ciccarelli

Rebel Witch by  Kristen Ciccarelli

Graceling by Kristin Cashore

Apprentice to the Villain by Hannah Nicole Maehrer

The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley

00:00 Welcome to Book Dragon Banter

00:35 Did Marketing Make You Read It?

01:11 Choosing Books as a Mood Reader

04:40 The Influence of Book Covers

05:19 The Overwhelming TBR List

07:42 Graphic Novels and Changing Reading Habits

10:10 The Hype Around Silver Elite

13:15 Marketing Strategies and Their Impact

17:48 The Role of Tropes in Book Marketing

24:32 Blurbs, Social Media, and Book Promotion

28:43 Paid Reviews and Objectivity

29:43 Rating Books and Constructive Criticism

30:30 Exploring Different Genres

32:20 The Role of Marketing in Book Choices

35:16 Fan Fiction and Character Development

40:32 Enemies to Lovers: A Deep Dive

42:40 Book Recommendations and Wrap-Up

45:46 Bloopers and Fun Moments

Transcript

Zinzi Bree: 0:00

Hi everyone. Welcome back to Book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring writers talk all things books. we're fantasy focused, but not exclusive. We chat about what tropes we love, what characters we love to hate, and everything in between. I am Zinzi Bree Joining me are my co-hosts Katherine and Sage. Welcome. And our lovely listeners who have stuck around. this is episode four. Thank you for listening this far or coming back, or if you've just discovered us. Welcome. I hope you've been enjoying so far. Today our topic is a did marketing make you read it? And if you listen to a previous episode, we immediately had a"Yes, marketing did!" From Katherine. But we're gonna get into it a little bit more. We're gonna do some dissection on how effective marketing is. When marketing goes wrong, does that make you not wanna read a book because it got controversial.

Sage: 0:57

Book Dragon Banter is rated explicit.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 1:00

If you're worried about Spoilers, check the show notes below. However, if you don't mind spoilers, then please continue on and we'll just surprise you along the way.

Zinzi Bree: 1:06

did marketing make you read it? Yes. Blanket answer. Yes. Like marketing does get me. I'll reframe for you, guys, how do you pick your books? Do you go on bestseller lists? Do you go on social media and let something tickle your fancy? as a mood reader, I feel like I'm in the mood for romance?" Is it that general or do you feel like,"I'm in the mood for a romance that is a one bed trope, that is a enemies to lovers trope?" How specific do you get if you're in your mood reading, narrowing down your field for your book choice? That was mostly aimed at Katherine because she's our proclaimed mood reader out of the three of us,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 1:47

yes, sometimes I do get that specific with my desires, but usually I have my TBR lists organized and I can just go scroll through and be like, oh, okay, this one is fantasy set in some dark academia background in an alternate verse. Okay, great. That sounds like what I want right now. Whereas sometimes I'm like, I want a cute, cozy, non-fan about writers, which is what I've been reading this week. I

Zinzi Bree: 2:18

Oh,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 2:18

I need something super relatable and super easy and super cute. I looked through my list and I saw like how to murder for authors or so something like that, and I was like, hell yeah, and it is fantastic.

Zinzi Bree: 2:32

you have your TBR organized, is it written out in a spreadsheet? Is it

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 2:37

not

Zinzi Bree: 2:38

are you just going and asking Google? What level of organization does your TBR have?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 2:42

Yeah. So I don't organize my wishlist on Amazon, but in my library app I can add anything that's in the library. I have several library cards. I will add those two different lists and I can create as many lists as I want in the library app. And there are some other things I can go into chirp or audiobooks.com or Google Play and find them or hoopla, something like that. Generally organize my lists in my library if they have that book, otherwise. If I see it, I'll get it next time.

Sage: 3:16

I'm also a mood reader in the sense that I base my next book choice a little bit on what I just read. So if I just read something really light and easy, then I might be ready for something more epic and world building intensive. I love Epic, but I sometimes don't have the brain power or wherewithal or time. I know that it's a busy week and I'm just not gonna have the time to invest in getting to know the story right away. So I will go for something a little lighter. actually have my. TBR list handwritten in my journal, but I also have like an ongoing list of books on hold at the library for my e-reader. So to a certain degree, I'm waiting for books, like whatever pops up that week is available, then I choose between those items. I haven't actually did a really nice job this time of color coding. I'm not usually this organized. I think I was trying, probably supposed to be writing my book and instead I decided to distract myself by taking all of my notes of different books I wanted to read and color coding them and writing like romantasy in one color and fantasy in another, and mystery, horror, all these kinds of things. So that was fun.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 4:30

Nice.

Zinzi Bree: 4:30

So what I'm hearing is we will be seeing pictures of your handwritten TBR color coded on our social media to share what that looks like,

Sage: 4:39

A hundred percent

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 4:40

Yes, please. One of the things about marketing that gets me is, and I consider the front cover to be a marketing tactic because it

Zinzi Bree: 4:47

Yes,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 4:47

to expect about the book. And they say don't judge a book by the cover, but

Zinzi Bree: 4:52

absolutely. Judge the book by its cover.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 4:54

the cover. a lot of the time, so that's why I don't do handwritten notes or an Excel sheet or something like that. Because when I'm in a mood and I don't know what I'm looking for half the time it's going to be influenced by what I see visually on the cover of the book. So I have to go into my visual TBR of the books that I've saved somewhere and be like, oh, that one looks interesting. Okay. What's that about?

Sage: 5:17

Seriously.

Zinzi Bree: 5:19

So I have here in my notes, that there's an estimated 6,000 new books published a. A day, 6,000 globally. you have to have marketing, you have to have a beautiful cover to get noticed. If your competition is six, I mean, granted a bunch of different languages, but 6,000 a day or I don't even have a further breakdown of like how many of those are in English or, you know, a specific language to diversify that list further.

Sage: 5:47

6,000 a day is, that's insane. I'm feeling overwhelmed by how many books I need to read

Zinzi Bree: 5:53

Oh, so your TBR just looks like that giant line of dominoes that just went into the distance

Sage: 5:58

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 5:58

I saw a quote recently it was the only way I will get to the end of my TBR is if I'm dead.

Sage: 6:04

I feel like I need that on a shirt.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 6:06

Number one on my bucket list. So I have a life bucket list, and then I have an internal bucket list, like places I wanna go and things I wanna do. but then really what it boils down to is the spot number one is finish my TBR before I die.

Sage: 6:20

You can't add

Zinzi Bree: 6:21

but you can't. So it'd be one thing if you were limiting yourself and you're like, I must have read all of the books that I physically own in my possession in my home before I die. Like

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 6:30

can't do

Zinzi Bree: 6:31

Yeah, but I'm saying that's the only way you can be successful at that. Otherwise your TBR will always grow, there'll always be more books as a lifelong reader until you're dead. the average American reads 12 books in a year. But the more accurate statistic is median, which is half of the population reads four books or less in a year. The other half reads four or more, which like you're a big literacy advocate. So to know that half of the population reads four or less..

Sage: 7:02

Yeah, I was just actually talking to my mom about this because she was working on, she has a young a middle grade novel and she wants to update it. And we were talking about what makes kids wanna read these days? And I was like, you know what Kids love Dog Man. And I don't know if you guys are familiar with Dog Man, it's a graphic novel that's full of like poop jokes. And remember seeing a quote that mothers both love and hate Dog Man because, Their kids are reading and they love that. And then what they're reading is it's silly and funny and, but your kids are reading, right? So Do you balance that?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 7:42

oh, I was gonna say, how do we feel about the rise of graphic novels?

Zinzi Bree: 7:44

Oh, segue. That not on our bingo card for discussions, but, I think the rise of graphic novels plays into the change in attention spans. it feels like there's been a lot of books that got popularity in mainstream. And they go from being a book to now, there's a graphic novel version of the same story. Now there's a Netflix TV series of the same story. They've moved more into the visual areas of storytelling because so much of the next generations have been, and even my generation have moved online, moved to quick forms of entertainment, have moved to, so this is something else I wanna talk about, is the a la carte, like ordering, this is what I want. This is specifically what I want, and I want it now. And you can get that more immediately. And I think that's partly what's being used in marketing as far as why we see tropes to market books on social media. We're like, you're not telling me what the story's about. You're showing me a pretty cover and you're saying these three to five tropes that are in this book. And that's how it's being sold.

Sage: 8:50

I actually a bit of a pet peeve around this, so I feel like tropes have been talked about a lot in the last number of years, and obviously they've existed for a very long time, but it's almost like books are being written to the trope instead of the story. That's maybe coming more from the heart, from the imagination, but that the you know, my book has to be enemies to Lovers and these other tropes and found family and, some kinda super elf thing. And then it has to hit some kind of plot structure. And it all just starts to feel so formulaic. And part of that I do think is marketing. It's okay, now we can market this book as being the next Sarah J Mass lookalike or the next version of the Hunger Games or whatever was just popular. Now here's the new thing of it. And so by following those tropes, it's easier to your story. Marketing wise, but I get so bored of it's so predictable. Okay. I love a good enemy is to lovers a story, but when it's clear that's what it is or it's told to me straight up front it, I don't enjoy the story as much. When marketing tells you exactly what to expect, I'm no longer surprised by the story. It's oh yeah, here we go. I did just start reading Silver Elite because of marketing hype and also because a friend of mine was asking me if I had read it yet. And then I read a review of it that kind of panned it. When people have a lot to say about a book that's not always positive, it kind of makes me wanna read it just to see really do I agree or whatever. And it feels a little bit predictable. I feel like we're trending in that direction more with mainstream promotion stuff.

Zinzi Bree: 10:37

Okay. So I wanna go into this. I'll pull it off my shelf. Prior to planning this podcast I had decided I was gonna try out Book of the Month My opinion is I'm still deciding if I like it. But in the first month that I had joined, this was their book. Okay. we are talking about Silver Elite by Dani Francis, And they teased it by going, this is our deluxe limited edition, sprayed edge. the cover is black and silver. And I'm saying this because we will have audio listeners that don't actually get to see me displaying the cover. And knowing nothing about the book other than there was magic powers. So I assumed fantasy. I didn't even know dystopian until later. This was one of my picks for that month. And I do have to say this is, a really eye catching, pretty cover in my opinion. I just got to chapter 15, so I am like a third. I'm this far, this much into this book, so still very beginning. So I can't give my full opinion on it yet. I'll stick it back here. But I did wanna say like the marketing got me the big push from. Book of the Month, the Sprayed Edges, I probably shouldn't have been put that away before I went. Oh, by the way Silver Elite which I know there was a big controversy. Not specifically on the content of the book necessarily, but on Dani Francis' being a pen name not knowing, is the book AI written, is it written by a guy who needed to assume of a feminine pen name for the purposes of marketing and selling? And there was also in the, as a writer, some controversy in that this book blew up because marketing pushed it because the publishers decided we're gonna back this. We're gonna get behind this, we're gonna spend money on it and send it out to book influencers and get it in front of people. Excellently marketed, but I don't know if that creates longevity. Even though I purchased the book, even though I think the outside is pretty, I'm not normally a dystopian reader. All of the controversy around it, if Sage hadn't been like I'm gonna read it so we can talk about it on the podcast, I probably would've just quietly taken it off my shelf and give it away. Without bothering to read it. Because I am the opposite of Sage, there's a bunch of controversy. Oh, people are panning this. I'm not gonna go, oh, I'm gonna go read it and see if their opinions are wrong. I'm gonna go, they're probably right. I have other books I'm more excited about. So there's sometimes marketing can backfire if you make a choice to do something that's controversial. Sure. It gets that book's title, into the air, into people talking about it. But there's just as much a chance of it getting to readers like me, where it's gonna go, no, that's gonna turn me off. I don't wanna touch that now. By the way, Sage, have you finished it yet? How far into it are you?

Sage: 13:39

No, I haven't. I probably would never have read it if hadn't. Had my friend ask me about it, and she and I talk about Fourth Wing and Sarah J Mass and that level of books. I'll give it a try. And it showed up in my, it was like on my holds list and it popped up.

Zinzi Bree: 13:57

This is good timing.

Sage: 13:58

yeah, I am maybe 25% of the way through. I don't know that I'm gonna keep reading it. It feels like I was saying, it's very predictable and I kind of see what's coming. I have other books that I would rather read. My TBR is really long. also am a book reviewer, so I have a list of books that I have to read for work. I read three to four books a month for work and then I try and fit in my own books from my TBR,

Zinzi Bree: 14:27

Pleasure reading.

Sage: 14:27

a lot. Yeah, that's a lot. Occasionally they overlap, but a lot of the books I read as a book reviewer are actually the books that are popular on social media. they are getting huge and a lot of teenagers are reading'em and I'm asked to review something because of that. So I end up reading. stuff that I wouldn't normally read. I don't know that I will reading Elite. I do really dystopian, but I like dystopian when it feels very message driven. I don't, we talked about it in the romance episode, I don't care The romance unless it's a really well done subplot. And honestly at this point they're all feeling very similar. All the romantasys. It's like the characters feel very similar and I just, I want something a little different these days, So good chance that I will not finish.

Zinzi Bree: 15:21

Oh, I am listening to it as an audiobook, and I am enjoying the audiobook. I'm listening it at least at one and a half speed, I think. So I'm getting through it pretty quick. And I probably will finish it. I'm not, I haven't gotten annoyed enough with the that there is a lot of oh gosh, he's hot. I hate myself for liking that he's hot, but I can't control the fact that I think he's hot. And I don't like that. I just, it's annoying. I don't, if I could choose not instead of having a well trigger warnings should be, in my opinion, in the front of books, it's nice to have trigger warnings that are vague. I do not want a fan fiction, AO3 everything is tagged, everything is trope, so you know exactly what you're getting. Into in my trigger warnings. But I would love, as a person who doesn't always enjoy the spice a like a contents list of Hey, here's the pages where the spice is. That has nothing to do with the story. If it's that kind of book.

Sage: 16:20

Yep.

Zinzi Bree: 16:20

'Cause some of them are, and so I can just know when I get to that page number. Here's the author's next page to skip to like, here's the spice stop here. Skip to this page. If you wanna read the story without spice. I want that as a, in the opening of my books Can we have a website that is the skip the smuts, skip the spice as a website.

Sage: 16:44

yeah, maybe we should make that.

Zinzi Bree: 16:45

or,

Sage: 16:46

to skip those pages or just read those pages depending on your

Zinzi Bree: 16:49

yeah. This probably, maybe this would be something that would get me canceled, but I would consider here I'm gonna write the clean version of the book and that's what I'm gonna publish.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 16:58

Oh,

Zinzi Bree: 16:58

But if you really want the spicy version, I will have that as an ebook or a deluxe edition or something behind a paywall. It's unlikely that I'm gonna write that into my cozy rom-com fantasy. My brain definitely plays those scenes out while I'm thinking about my characters in the world building. It's there, I could write it but it's not. Those aren't relevant to the plot for me because they're not romance's first stories. They're plot first. So it doesn't make it necessary. Which is why I'd be like, Hey, if you really want that, if you love these characters that much. If well, sorry, not sorry. I have bills to pay guys.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 17:36

That reminds me of the Patreon things for people who do the web comics like And tapas and things like that. And they're like, okay, if you want the NSFW then go to my Patreon. Then, you know, you also have to click buttons like, Hey, I'm 18 or older and things like. But it does kind of bring us back to tropes and like how people identify the tropes on things. When you guys were deciding to read Silver Elite, was it just because it was in the book of the month or because of all the hype online? Was it like one of those trope pictures that we see?

Zinzi Bree: 18:08

I have not seen a picture for Silver Elite. I picked it up because it was hyped up on book of the month and it was done. I will commend book of the months for its marketing. They do a good job of teasing what the book is about. The author in an interview, and this is what spurred some of the controversy, was that, oh, I wanted a book that was in a dystopian setting or like the Hunger Games, but with adults and sex." And that is that I learned about after I had already purchased the book. if I had known that I wouldn't have gotten it.'Cause it's just those are not the things that attract me to a story.

Sage: 18:51

And I

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 18:51

enough.

Sage: 18:53

I'm reading it hunger Games is so dear to my heart. I think that Hunger Games reading, that was the book that got me wanting to write again. I had a lot of writing when I was younger and never followed through to finishing a manuscript. But reading that really re incited that desire and I started doing more writing again after that. And, there's a lot that I really love in Hunger Games, how there is a look at media's influence violence and society and power and all of that. I have a media literacy background. I worked in the film industry for a long time, and so that resonated with me quite a lot. So when I heard that this book was being likened to the Hunger Games, but with adults with sex, that was not making me want to read it except that I, association with the Hunger Games, I was like, okay, what does that look like? Could you do that well and actually have that still, that depth of meaning. Or are we just taking a story that is super popular, people love it. Using that as our reason. our comp. So are we using this Title? just to get people to buy it. So I was kind of curious if there was the dystopian meaning in the book, in which case, adding some adult sex scenes hits another audience level that maybe isn't gonna be interested in reading the Hunger Games.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 20:18

Interesting because I think one of the reasons why I like Retellings is because I wanna know what unique spin the author brings to it.

Zinzi Bree: 20:27

Yes,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 20:27

so strongly referred to it's the Hunger Games, but with these things that's a really strong comparison, I would wonder how they did it. And so that out of anything you guys have said so far, piques my curiosity just simply to see if it is unique, what their unique take on this world and everything is. And now of course, you guys aren't very far into it, and both of you're kinda like, eh, so maybe I won't. We'll see.

Zinzi Bree: 20:52

in the one third of the book that I have gotten through I keep having the thought this is a dystopian Fourth Wing.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 20:59

Huh.

Zinzi Bree: 21:00

It is not close to the Hunger Games. It is much closer, story structure so far. The thrown into the military fairly early into the story. This is, the very first time that I have read a main character that is a sharpshooter that has a gun They're not calling them magic powers. They're mutant powers. So maybe the better comp would've been like a dystopian fourth wing with X-Men characters.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 21:27

okay.

Sage: 21:28

no dragons.

Zinzi Bree: 21:30

No dragons. So if you see a book everywhere, if you feel like it's constantly talked about, whether controversial or not, does that turn you off? Do you go, I don't really wanna read that'cause everybody's reading that, I'll go find something else.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 21:43

Yeah it depends for me, okay,

Zinzi Bree: 21:46

Do you suffer from fomo?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 21:47

I do, I suffer from fomo, especially when I would love to be able to talk about the books. Like I haven't read Silver Elite. And so I would love to be able to talk about it, but also I kinda getting your 2 cents before I commit my time to it. That said books like that. It's been out for only a couple of months and it's got 60,000 reviews and things like that. And that tells me that a big publisher has put most of their marketing into this one book so that they can make big bank and move on to the next thing. But that also means that whatever other books they have agreed to promote and market are not getting the same budget that book is, that

Zinzi Bree: 22:23

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 22:24

And I don't think that's necessarily bad in the sense that as a business person, you put your money where you're gonna make the money. But as an author, if I were one of the other ones that was recently signed and I was really hoping for a bigger cut of the marketing budget for May, June, and July, then to see my publishing company only promoting this one book. Does that make it bad? Not necessarily, but I do have complicated feelings about it. I'm not seeing other books from this publisher, I know that there are some getting swept under the rug and authors that are missing out on the potential that marketing could have brought them. And so authors out there, take note, if you are doing self-publishing or hybrid publishing and things like that, there are ways to climb the lists and get out there. You just have to push it. And sometimes that does mean some financial commitment just like probably what's going on behind the scenes with Silver Elite.

Sage: 23:22

I get a little frustrated by the marketing because I feel like the book industry, I mean it makes sense because of money, but it's similar to Hollywood in my mind, where it's the same movies are getting. made and promoted and all the money is being spent on making whatever is a safe bet. So you promote with books, you promote the trope, you promote the comp titles. This is the new Fourth Wing, this is the new whatever. And like you said, Katherine, like those other titles that maybe are better books or somebody would enjoy reading'cause it's different than everything else that's out there are getting swept under the rug. I don't want every book to be kind of the same. Yes, if I am looking for a quick read, something easy where it's just like a no-brainer to dive into is one thing. But generally I wanna be like challenged by my books. I want to read something unique. I wanna feel the passion that the author had. I don't wanna wonder if it was written by ai. If I actually think it's something will enjoy then yes. But I won't read it just because it's popular.

Zinzi Bree: 24:34

I wanna go to something that happened at the beginning of this year where there were publishers that had decided to move away from book blurbs where they weren't like on their covers, they weren't going forward going to try and sell a book because another author recommended it. I think that has to do with social media now taking the place of needing an author's opinion to sell a book. if I pick up a book and I have this beautiful cover and I have these sprayed edges and I have a quote from a book, now granted, this is a book that I already loved and that's why I hunted it down. I don't wanna see another author's opinion like that would ruin a cover is beautiful as this. Even, I'm trying to see if I go over to Fourth Wing here, which I don't have, I don't have a special fancy edition. I think this is just from Costco. It's got a quote. It's got part of the book on the back, which I prefer those, if I'm gonna look at a shelf of books and go, that's a pretty cover. It's got dragons on it. Okay, I'm gonna check what's the writing style, what's going on in the back of the book. And it has a quote from the book that's intriguing or it actually has. Part of the book back there. That's a significant moment. I'm gonna prefer that over.'Cause I've seen books that I pick it up and the back of it is six other authors, great authors. Authors I've read saying this book was great. I love this. And the skeptic in me, I would like as a writer to believe that these authors, yes, thank you. Oh, the Knight Circus had it. Oh, Love the Knight Circus, but I hate that.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 26:19

Different versions have different advertising tactics. They probably try a bunch of different things, but yeah, here's a version of that. Whereas here's a version of a Peter in the star catchers book where

Zinzi Bree: 26:31

just beautiful.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 26:32

it's just beautiful.

Zinzi Bree: 26:33

End of story.

Sage: 26:33

I agree that I

Zinzi Bree: 26:34

I've.

Sage: 26:34

this has to do with like social media marketing and the change in marketing for books, because it used to be that the way you promoted a book, they'd be at the bookstore and there would be advertisements and magazines which we don't really have that anymore. Or you might have something like Oprah's Book Club or Reese Witherspoon's book Club and those promote books, but. Back in the day, you might see a thriller by an author. You didn't know who it was, and it has a quote by Stephen King, and that gives a little validity. I generally would not choose a book based on the author blurb. I'd much rather read like a synopsis or like you said, I'll open the book up and read a little section of it to see if I like the writing style.

Zinzi Bree: 27:17

When I go to the library, I will go in, look at a book go, okay, covers got me titles, got me art style, whatever that, you know, signals certain things about the kind of book that it's gonna be. And then I will open it and library books, have a story summary that has like skeleton blurb, a bare bones, this is what the story is about, one or two sentences. And I will choose to read the book based on that just little library required sentence And a thought that I didn't finish is, did the authors actually read the book when they gave that end? Did they get paid to read that? Now I don't think that they did. I think it was genuinely, it's a small enough world, especially if you're in a similar genre being traditionally published where a lot of them are friends. So that's, they're reading their friends' books and they're giving a recommendation on their friends' book. Like that's more likely to be the thing then pay happening or the editor is going, you know, Hey, I'm friends with this author, or I'm an agent and I agent these five authors, can I get them to read each other's and recommend some of that is probably going on. but before I was like, did they actually read it or were they paid to read it and give a good opinion? And I think that now has since moved to book influencers. I would hope that more often than not, they've actually read the book that they're. Hyping up. But I can imagine ones that are big, that are influential enough, maybe not all the time, There is a level of skepticism in me, and maybe it's just, I don't know enough. How much of that is paid? How much of that should be paid? Because I do believe that it is service and it should be paid like Sage, you're, you do reviews that are for Common Sense Media, and I absolutely believe you should be paid for your time to read the book and review it. But You're not giving an opinion on this is a good book. I enjoyed it. You're giving a, this is what the content is,

Sage: 29:17

I do both. I do report back on content, which is from a objective standpoint. It's just very much like this level of violence, this specific type of violence, this specific type of language, these positive messages, this amount of diversity in character. and a synopsis of what the book is about without spoilers. I also give a short description of the book and I rate it. I'm required to rate it on a. five star rating, which is the hardest part for me, since I can't give like half points

Zinzi Bree: 29:54

Yeah.

Sage: 29:54

it is hard for me to rate things like I'm generally a positive person and I don't like to say bad things, but I'll say if I didn't enjoy the book, I will try and do constructive criticism around it. So I'm not just slamming books when I write a opinion part of my review, I'm very much trying to analytically explain why I did or didn't like it. Did the characters fall a little too flat and that's why I didn't enjoy it, or Did I just not enjoy it?'cause that's not my type of book'cause I'm assigned the books. Or did I not enjoy it

Zinzi Bree: 30:26

Yeah.

Sage: 30:26

technically there was problems. And that's more what I base my work On. I do get free books

Zinzi Bree: 30:32

for that.

Sage: 30:33

And I read stuff that I wouldn't ordinarily read. So like I read a bunch of Emily Henry books because they've been popular on TikTok and I don't read a ton of romance and I don't read a lot of contemporary romance, but she wrote some really beautiful, fun books and I was happy that I got a chance to read those, you know? I read like middle grade books and stuff too. So it's a gamut sure. I was under the impression that the book blurbs or the reviews by authors were paid and that, that was like a side income for well-known authors. I could be wrong about that.

Zinzi Bree: 31:08

Listeners, if you know, if you're,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 31:10

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 31:11

let us know, is this something that, Do you know? Do you have to sign NDAs? Like I also feel like depending on how early you see a manuscript, what version are they reading? Even is it a beta, is it in its arc form? Um,

Sage: 31:25

a reading and I haven't been paid for that.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 31:28

There are paid arcs too though, but paid arcs tend to assume that the. Or at least the author is hoping that it'll be a positive arc.

Sage: 31:37

I did feel a little bit of pressure on the arcs reading that I did. One was for a friend and it was a lovely book, but I did feel like a little bit of oh, Hopefully I don't hate the book.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 31:47

yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 31:48

Now I am.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 31:49

won't post about a book that they don't like, and like they contractually say Not to post about it, that doesn't mean I didn't read it. It just means that I couldn't respectfully give my opinion And feel good about giving it.

Zinzi Bree: 32:01

That's a better response than being, I was sent this as an arc and I hated it. Don't bother. How awful is that? I don't want to,

Sage: 32:07

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 32:08

I don't like any Of the posts or videos that are I read 60 books so far this year and here are my DNFs.

Sage: 32:16

Oh

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 32:16

Yeah.

Sage: 32:17

Like it's just negativity. If our

Zinzi Bree: 32:20

which feeds the algorithm.

Sage: 32:22

Yeah. I would be interested to know if our listeners are likely to read Silver Elite based on our own talking about it, which is enough form. Like I realized we were kind of marketing the book in About it so much. Listeners, if you do end up picking up the book and reading it, let us know what you think.

Zinzi Bree: 32:37

The books that we recommend specifically at the end, like those are ones that are my whole heart is behind this. I fully recommend this. Please read it, please, because I wanna meet you in person and fan together over this book. That is part of the love of books and being in the book community, being in fandom is shared passion. That's one of the best things about it. So I want to read more books. Other people are reading and gushing about them.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 33:02

You know, I have another point about marketing tactics. So did say that marketing will make me buy it, sometimes, it just depends on my mood and what I'm looking for. And I thought about it and I think my third point there is my level of decision fatigue. So if I really wanna go and browse and choose something for myself that I'm really going to love that is like. It doesn't spoil anything for me. It doesn't give me all the tropes up front. I will do that. However, if I just want something to read right now that hits a certain button and I see a trope graphic, like it's got this and that and whatever in it, in the graphic, then I'll be like, yeah, okay, sounds good. That hits it for now. And then I save on some decision fatigue. And also that element when it comes to author blurbs and book awards and things like that lends credibility to the book too. I'm like, oh, okay. Quality enough that they're willing to put their name on it, that they're willing, even if they're paid or whatever, they're willing to have their name stamped on this. that book was worth it. Then I do see that as credibility, so I won't be turned off by that necessarily. But I do prefer for the book. Information to be about the book itself. Like I would rather From the author on the back of the book than to read Oh, publishers Weekly and USA today. I think for me though, when I do choose the hyper marketed books that use all of the trope graphics and whatnot, is decision fatigue. Sometimes I just don't wanna have to decide. I just wanna say, oh, that'll satisfy.

Zinzi Bree: 34:38

That's a really good point.

Sage: 34:39

of my book choices are based on word of mouth, and I'm now realizing that I was sitting at a, a play and the women next to me were talking about Fourth Wing, and I was like, wait, what are you talking about? And they might have found out about it because of marketing hype or social media. So it's like secondhand marketing made me read it.

Zinzi Bree: 34:58

Yeah. I mean that if you get a book just out there in front of enough people that it's being talked about positive or negatively, that just that awareness is in a book economy that has 6,000 new books a day to compete with. Isn't that why they say any marketing is good marketing?

Sage: 35:18

yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 35:19

So I read The Irresistible Urge to Fall for Your Enemy, which was marketed controversially, marketed as a Dramamine, not Dramamine. That's a medicine. Dramione.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 35:33

Oh, okay.

Zinzi Bree: 35:34

sorry.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 35:35

like a Drago

Zinzi Bree: 35:36

Drama. yes. Draco and Hermione book.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 35:39

Okay.

Zinzi Bree: 35:41

and now that I've read it and seen some other opinions out there about it, and I read it on Launch Day because I had read the fan fiction Brigitte Knightley had previously written and is still available on AO3, which is Draco Malfoy and the Mortifying Ordeal of Being in Love, and I loved that. But it absolutely for character development relies on the previously established relationship between Draco and Hermione in the Harry Potter books. there isn't a good way to take that one and take out the Harry Potter elements and separate it well enough for it to stand on it own and be Reskinned versus two other books that are also being published this year that are also Draco and Hermione previous fan fictions. One is Rose in Chains, which was previously titled The Auction on AO3. And the other one is Alchemized, which was previously Manacled. And I read Manacled specifically because I wanted to know one, one FOMO. FOMO got me. I was hearing about it all the time. But also I plan to read Alchemized because I want to see how the author makes me care about Hermione and Draco now that they would no longer be Hermione and Draco. There's so much work that an author has to put into making you care about your characters.

Sage: 37:04

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 37:04

and if you take away all of the effort from the other books, that a fan fiction allows that depth of character. And Alchemized it's gonna be, it's big hefty book. Manacled is over a thousand pages long. But going back to The Irresistable Urge to Fall for Your Enemy I read that and It is enjoyable. It is a fun read. The banter is great. There are lots of things that I love about Brigitte Nightley's writing style but the characters are shallow. Not in that they're shallow people, but there isn't a depth to them. there was so much effort on the banter and the fun. And I did enjoy the effort she put into her world building. There's a glossary of terms at the beginning. There's a map, there's a,"Hey, these are the different orders that exist" in this book to explain the magic. It's a fully magical setting. it doesn't have the muggle and Wizard World Separation. But Aurienne and Osric, those are the main couple. Like they're enjoyable. But they're only likable to me from the context that they are Draco and Hermione. They're not Draco and Hermione copycats'cause there are some differences, but that they're modeled after Draco and Hermione. Like that's the only way that makes them more likable because you're going, oh, I'm waiting for this character trait to show up from that perception. And in the marketing they put out that they're Draco and Hermione and part of that is to snack.'cause that's like a massive fandom, subset, fandom of those characters that just, that's loved. But I think also that took some of the labor off of the author to have put in more effort to ground those characters. Now I will also say that is the first book in a duology, and I will read the second one.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 38:55

You know, that's a very interesting point and it makes me think about a series I recently read based on word of mouth recommendations was the Carry On by Rainbow Rowell. I adored it. I thought it was so well done, and I loved the depth of the relationship and character that the author was able to bring into characters who outside of this book seemed very different. That said the location that the author picks up at for these two characters is right after, all of the time at or during the final year. It does come through, if you've read Harry Potter before, you will see the exact references here. So I am wondering if I hadn't read Harry Potter once upon a time, but if I hadn't read it, if I wasn't familiar with the books or the movies, would I still feel like those characters have depth prior to where the book starts? I do think that the author builds character into the characters as we go really well. But we're still coming at it knowing that they had all this time at school

Sage: 40:07

That's a good point. I also read the Carry On Series and very much enjoyed it, but I had read Harry Potter before and so I can't speak to that part of it, I will say that there's often books where you're kind of set into the middle of a relationship where there is a lot of past history between the characters. It's not like they're meeting for the first time on the page, so

Zinzi Bree: 40:28

But that past history is explored, right?

Sage: 40:31

but then I

Zinzi Bree: 40:31

Like in the context of the story. Eventually it's explored versus

Sage: 40:34

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 40:35

That wasn't explored well, or the enemies to lover's portion in the irresistible urge had oh, he's an assassin. I'm a healer, so I should hate him."

Sage: 40:44

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree: 40:45

that's not a well-developed enemies to begin with. Versus a story where he's an assassin and he assassinated my uncle, he assassinated a person that I loved. Maybe a person that I loved that was doing bad things I didn't know about, but you were actively my enemy until this reveal happens later. that's a better enemies to lovers. That's my preferred enemies to lovers kind of scenario.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 41:11

Yeah, I just read an Enemies to Lovers. That was actually really good.

Zinzi Bree: 41:15

Title.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 41:17

okay, so I just read Heartless Hunter, followed by Rebel Witch

Zinzi Bree: 41:21

Oh,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 41:21

so

Zinzi Bree: 41:21

okay.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 41:22

and it was really good. There

Zinzi Bree: 41:24

is an element

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 41:25

the development of the relationship. I wish that there had been more to, but I also understand that this was trad published, I believe, they had a word count for the genre convention to adhere to. But essentially I wanted there to be more discussion and forgiveness and apologies. Based on what made them enemies in the first place. But the author did explain it well enough to help me connect with each character. Both of the characters totally understood, throughout the development of the relationship where the other was coming from. And they could have compassion for why they ended up on opposite sides this conflict in the story. So I do recommend it. Highly recommend it. Most humans don't really mind, I think, when there's not a huge apology scene. But me, as a human myself, I'd be like, nah, you gotta make things right with me before we can move forward. I just wanted a little bit more, but it was excellent. Enemies to Lovers. Done well, Heartless Hunter and Rebel Witch.

Zinzi Bree: 42:28

That's some last name that I cannot pronounce. But I can picture the covers in my head'cause the covers are really pretty. I'm looking through my list of discussion stuff and there were other things. I almost wanna do a second part to this because there were absolutely more things that I wanted to talk about.

Sage: 42:43

So my recommendation for

Zinzi Bree: 42:45

Oh, yes.

Sage: 42:45

Graceling by Kristin Cashore it is a lovely story that I. Listen to the audio book from not knowing really anything about it, but it is fantasy with a romance subplot and really great characters. Really cool world building. The first in, there's a bunch of books set in the same world, but not with the necessarily always the same characters. So you don't have to read a whole trilogy. If you just wanna read this one as a standalone, totally can. Highly recommend

Zinzi Bree: 43:14

I've read that series. It is really good.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 43:15

My recommendation

Zinzi Bree: 43:16

go ahead.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 43:17

I got because of marketing only, and it was Apprentice to the Villain and I was not disappointed.

Zinzi Bree: 43:22

I apprentice to the villain is so fun.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 43:25

Yes.

Zinzi Bree: 43:26

these recommended reads, yours is marketing Katherine Marketing. Got you. For yours. But for Sage and mine, we are doing the throwback books trend. So Sage and I are throwbacks. And this is not like a fancy cover, this is secondhand from the free little library. But it is The Blue Sword by Robin McKinley. I also really highly recommend the audiobook. This is a YA fantasy romance subplot. And it is, oh gosh my memories of it are very vivid as far as setting the magic is very. It's present, but subtle. It's not this big superpowers thing, but more mythical feeling. And there is a book that goes before it that is the Hero and the Crown. But you can absolutely read them separately. There's just, if you read that one first, then you'll see a couple of little scattered references in the Blue Sword. the main character, the Harry Crew might be, there might be a little bit of a chosen one going on with this because she becomes the Harimad-sol King's Rider. it's delightful. But Robin McKinley, she's one of my favorite authors, her writing is so beautiful. All right. Where can you find us on social media?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 44:43

you can find us on social media platforms. You can see them linked below.

Sage: 44:47

Our next book club is coming up, and if you wanna grab the book and read along, the book is For She is Wrath by Emily Varga and I hope that you enjoy it.

Zinzi Bree: 44:57

Yeah. I'm really excited because it's the. magical retelling of the count of Monte Cristo.

Sage: 45:02

Yeah, I saw that

Zinzi Bree: 45:03

I'm excited for it.

Sage: 45:04

but I have not started reading it yet.

Zinzi Bree: 45:06

We are still, a Baby podcast. We would love if you would rate and review. Those stars really help. Our next episode to be titled it doesn't have a title yet but we will be discussing reading challenges seasonal reads, being a mood reader. Book bingo. Something I came across recently that I'm excited to research and dig into, which is the hardest reading challenge you will ever do. And it looks insane. But I'm very excited. We will, be discussing that next time. Thank you so much for tuning in. Bye.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 45:36

Bye.

Zinzi Bree: 45:48

And here are your bloopers which might just be cat sounds, just Katherine's cat sounds.

Sage: 45:54

And the dog barking.

Zinzi Bree: 45:56

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 45:57

Say hi.

Zinzi Bree: 45:58

I'm trying to remember how to bring that up. She's being so talkative.

Sage: 46:04

Aw.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:05

Here you go, baby. No, she's talking at me. She just, when I respond and ask her what she wants, she just looks at me like, how come you. don't understand?

Zinzi Bree: 46:13

Us dumb humans. Why can't we speak animal?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:16

I don't know. You'd think by now we'd have it figured out. My

Zinzi Bree: 46:21

Yeah,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:22

herself. She's curled up with a plushie here.

Zinzi Bree: 46:24

Awesome. Man, I'm weirdly nervous again. I wasn't, last time I was just like, Ooh, this is fun. I wasn't nervous.

Sage: 46:31

It is

Zinzi Bree: 46:32

Do.

Sage: 46:32

nervous and then you are like, I'm gonna hit record. And I'm like, now I'm nervous.

Zinzi Bree: 46:37

Yeah. Hi everyone. Welcome back to Book Drain Banter. Uh, this is a podcast where we the three of us, Katherine Sage. Wow. Great. This is why I warm up my voice beforehand so I can spiel and not just stumble over things. Do another take. Yep.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:55

Take two If, okay. We're

Zinzi Bree: 46:58

You got it?

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 46:58

today, aren't we? Yeah. You know what? It's okay.

Sage: 47:01

Now I'm covering

Zinzi Bree: 47:02

that's

Sage: 47:03

So I don't stare at myself.

Zinzi Bree: 47:05

I am,

Sage: 47:06

sure I'm centered and everything is so that I can just not look at myself again.

Zinzi Bree: 47:10

Yeah I hopefully have gotten my camera to a good spot for eye contact. Will be less talking off here and when we're talking into here.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 47:17

I am

Zinzi Bree: 47:17

all i,

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 47:18

much.

Zinzi Bree: 47:19

but it's a fun,

Sage: 47:21

and it's fun,

Zinzi Bree: 47:21

We're all very different people.

Sage: 47:24

I'm gonna move more.

Zinzi Bree: 47:26

Okay. Sadly I did not, do my usual singing warmup stuff. So I can even tell my voice is you're not fully awakened.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 47:33

What's your warmup? We'll do it together.

Zinzi Bree: 47:34

Lubricated. What? No. I told you guys before it was just, I would turn on Taylor Swift or I would turn on whatever. Although right now it's I have stuck in my head. K-Pop demon hunters

Sage: 47:46

I don't

Zinzi Bree: 47:46

music.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 47:48

that's on my list.

Sage: 47:49

don't know the music.

Zinzi Bree: 47:51

From Netflix.

Sage: 47:51

Is it good?

Zinzi Bree: 47:52

yeah, I'd recommend it. It's fun. all the music is very earworm. So be prepared it might be the new obsession. It feels a little bit like when frozen and everybody was into singing let it Go,

Sage: 48:05

I won't tell my cute side story.

Zinzi Bree: 48:07

Oh, please tell your Yes. please.

Sage: 48:09

the other night we were hanging out and we decided to play, we were playing music, all the four of us. We decided to play our guilty

Zinzi Bree: 48:16

ooh,

Sage: 48:16

song and played those. So my son who's like 12, his guilty pleasure song was the one that Christophe sings in Frozen 2. The like love

Zinzi Bree: 48:25

Lost in the woods.

Sage: 48:26

I love that so much.

Zinzi Bree: 48:29

we need a name for our, it's not our Dragon babies.

Sage: 48:33

Hatchlings.

Zinzi Bree: 48:33

hatchlings. Hey. So if you have a suggestion for what the Book Dragon Banter or fans should be called put them in the comments. let us know what you would like, or we'll just maybe have a bloopers where we're spit balling what we'll call you guys. All of our gems, treasures

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 48:51

tribe. cohorts, hoard.

Sage: 48:53

What's a

Zinzi Bree: 48:54

Our,

Sage: 48:56

Hoard. yeah,

Zinzi Bree: 48:57

maybe it's a flight of dragons. Come be our flight.

Sage: 49:00

Okay.

Zinzi Bree: 49:02

Oh our, oh, a thunder of dragons, man, that's awesome. Come be our thunder.

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 49:08

I

Zinzi Bree: 49:08

You are our thunder. Oh, google can't be wrong. Listeners, tell us in the comments. Do you wanna be

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 49:14

a flight, a hoard, A thunder

Zinzi Bree: 49:16

thunder

Katherine Suzette | Book Coach: 49:16

or hatchlings,

Zinzi Bree: 49:17

it's like a murder of crows. I think Thunderer is cool.