Book Dragon Banter

Light, Dark, but mostly Morally Grey

• Zinzi Brookbree • Season 1 • Episode 1

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Exploring Light, Dark, and Morally Gray Characters in Fantasy

In this episode of Book Dragon Banter, hosts Zinzi Bree, Katherine Suzette, and Sage Moreaux dive into the complexities of light, dark, and morally gray themes in fantasy literature. They discuss character archetypes, settings, and how these elements define the genre. The conversation covers popular books like 'The Cruel Prince' by Holly Black, 'A Court of Thorns and Roses' by Sarah J. Maas, and many more. The hosts share personal anecdotes and reflections on why they are drawn to particular types of fantasy and offer book recommendations spanning the spectrum from light and cozy to dark and morally complex.


YT: https://www.youtube.com/@BookDragonBanterpodcast

TT: https://www.tiktok.com/@bookdragonbanterpod

Insta: https://www.instagram.com/bookdragonbanter/

Sage: https://readorbleed.substack.com/

Katherine: https://www.bookdragoneditorial.com/


Books Mentioned:

The Cruel Prince - Holly Black - Folk of the Air Series

A Court of Thorns and Roses - Sarah J. Mass - ACOTAR

1-3 The Zodiac Academy -  Caroline Beckham & Susanne Valenti

Outlander - Diana Gabaldon

 Throne in the dark - A. K. Caggiano - Villains and Virtues

Assistant to the Villain - Hannah Nicole Maehrer

Hellbent - Leigh Bardugo

Interview with the Vampire - Anne Rice

Vampire Diaries - L.J. Smith

The Spellshop - Sarah Beth Durst

Dreadful - Caitlin Rozakis

Slewfloot - Brom

This Present Darkness - Frank E. Peretti

The Screwtape Letters - C.S. Lewis

The Gentleman’s Guide to Vice and Virtue - Mackenzi Lee

Loki: Where Mischief Lies -  Mackenzi Lee 

The Blade Itself - Joe Abercrombie - The First Law Trilogy 

A Game of Thrones - George R.R. Martin

Dungeon Crawler Carl - Matt Dinniman

The Familiar - Leigh Bardugo 

How to Get a Girlfriend (When You’re a Terrifying Monster) -  Marie Cardno

They Bloom at Night - Trang Thanh Tran

Throne of Glass Series - Sarah J. Mass 

The Night Circus - Erin Morgenstern

Blood of Elves - Andrzej Sapkowski (Translated by Danusia Stok) -The Witcher 

The Gilded Wolves - Roshani Chokshi 


00:00 Introduction to Book Dragon Banter

00:25 Exploring Light, Dark, and Morally Gray in Fantasy

01:57 Defining Morally Gray Characters

03:53 The Appeal of Morally Gray Characters in Romance

05:53 Personal Experiences with Morally Gray Characters

12:20 Dark Fantasy vs. Horror Fantasy

18:49 Cozy Fantasy and Light Fantasy

22:44 Spiritual and Morally Gray Elements in Fantasy

28:02 Mythologically Inspired Loki Books

28:52 Exploring Light, Dark, and Morally Gray Fantasy

29:24 Dark Fantasy and Its Complex Characters

32:55 The Appeal of Morally Gray Characters

35:52 Fantasy Horror vs. Dark Fantasy

39:33 Favorite Morally Gray Characters

47:45 Book Recommendations for Light, Dark, and Morally Gray Fantasy

49:29 Podcast Wrap-Up and Bloopers



Get in touch with us!

Zinzi Bree:

Welcome to book Dragon Banter, a podcast where three aspiring writers talk all things books. We're fantasy focused, but we're not exclusive. We chat about tropes we love, what characters we love to hate, and everything in between. Uh, I'm Zinzi Bree. Hi.

Katherine Suzette:

I am Katherine Suzette.

Sage Moreaux:

Hi, I'm Sage Moreaux.

Zinzi Bree:

And welcome to Book Dragon Banter. This is the episode we are talking about light, dark, and morally gray in fantasy. Light, dark and morally gray characters. Light, dark and morally gray settings. Light, dark, and morally gray as a genre, like how that's defined.

Katherine Suzette:

So we are technically an explicit podcast, we might be talking about some darker topics, especially in today's episode.

Sage Moreaux:

And we will be talking about books in detail, so there will be spoilers, and you can find a list of the novels that we talk about in our show notes so that you can make sure that there's nothing on your to be read list that is about to be spoiled for you.

Zinzi Bree:

And you can always skip ahead, if you hear it brought up, skip.

Sage Moreaux:

They could skip it or they could just kind of sing in their la, la, la, la, la as it's being talked about.

Zinzi Bree:

Oh, disclaimer. we do use pop culture, when we're talking about books. Movies, TV shows, music, some other stuff that. Helps illustrate our points when we're talking about books because not everybody has read the same books that we have. This is my hair brained idea. This podcast, we were working on other business stuff together and I went, Hey, let's do a podcast. Not knowing, at all, the amount of work I had just committed the three of us, but especially myself, too.

Sage Moreaux:

Yep.

Katherine Suzette:

absolutely

Zinzi Bree:

I'm learning to do this all from scratch. So if there's bad audio, if there's bad video. Blame me. It's all on me. I'm, I'm doing the behind the scenes here and send tips, send help. I will take it. So let us get into defining, genre's light, dark, and morally? Is there morally gray as a genre? Yeah. I specifically looked them up, I went onto Goodreads and was trying what is the definition? And now I don't unfortunately have that written down in front of me, but there it is in my head and a little bit of the genre breakdowns that are also included for some of them,

Sage Moreaux:

I looked it up on Reddit and got some funny answers, but not necessarily anything official.

Katherine Suzette:

too.

Zinzi Bree:

how can a genre be official outside of romance where you've got a literary arm organization defining what it is. We don't have that, that I'm aware of for

Sage Moreaux:

That's true.

Zinzi Bree:

fantasy, cozy fantasy, even fantasy broadly because there's so much variety. Like there isn't, as narrow romance. Like you have to have your HEA or your, your happily ever after for now. Like that structure for it to qualify as romance. You can put those guardrails on. But for fantasy, sky's the limit. So let us get into defining, is there morally gray as a genre?

Katherine Suzette:

No, I think that morally gray might have to do more with the characters themselves, the decisions, and maybe even what the plot is forcing these characters through. So maybe morally gray applies to any version of book, I love how it sounds, light, dark, and morally gray. I vote yes

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

to all of the above.

Sage Moreaux:

I would agree. I think that there are books where, like The Cruel Prince, for example, which I think a couple of us have read, by Holly Black, in The Folk of the Air series, where many of the characters are fairies who are prone to trickery and often don't see morally gray as. That's just like their way of life. They don't see it as a problem whatsoever, so the book itself is not a morally gray book, but the setting that the world is in is almost like morally gray is just the average, the normal.

Zinzi Bree:

I agree with that.

Katherine Suzette:

maybe even with the advent of all of this romantasy around, I definitely see morally gray characters being the attractive characters these days. That's what people want for some level of believability and also maybe in some cases like redeemable darkness or the attraction to darkness itself, which I think also applies to dark fantasy. But the, when it comes to characters specifically, that the morally gray is pretty attractive these days, especially when it comes to romantic interests.

Sage Moreaux:

Yeah, I don't know this is from a female perspective, but like he's broken and I can fix him as a classic kind of mindset that you see a lot in romance. It annoys me too, but I do see that as kind of an element and I wonder if that lent into the, but I really like what you said about it being because it's more realistic. If the person is so perfect or always makes the right decision, that doesn't feel like a real life person that you might encounter. So to have the love interest be somebody who is a little rougher on the edges is a little bit somebody you might have to be. I've noticed that a lot of morally gray love interests seem like they're bad at first, bad or doing, making decisions that you don't necessarily think are for the greater good. And then it turns out that they have this ulterior motive and they're hiding something. And actually they're working, I'm thinking of like Rhysand a Court of Thorn and Roses there's a couple other of those like shadow characters where it seems like they're working nefariously, but really they have this really altruistic thing that they are having to make these difficult decisions because of it.

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

And then you find out, oh, actually they're this amazing hero and not as morally gray as we thought. Not so much in The Cruel Prince.

Zinzi Bree:

Yeah. Uh, definitely not. I do have to confess, I got to chapter five of the Cruel Prince, and I almost DNF'd the book. And it was solely on your recommendation, Sage. I was like, Sage loves this. She thinks it's amazing. I'm gonna push through and I'm gonna keep going. I'm gonna give it a fair shot. And I will explain why at the chapter five, there was the scene that, they had class where there was a picnic where Jude gets bullied. And then there's a follow-up scene where Jude and her sister are bullied and get thrown into the river. And Cardin, who I already knew at that point, was supposed to be the love interest, he's part of the bullying. Bully Romance is a no. Like, that's, nope, heck no. Not interested. There's a mirror scene of this basically in, they're twins too, it's a huge series. It's an astrological,

Katherine Suzette:

the Zodiac

Zinzi Bree:

yes. Zodiac Academy.

Sage Moreaux:

I haven't read that.

Zinzi Bree:

like a scene just like it in Zodiac Academy. And as soon as I read the mirror of it in Cruel Prince, I was like, oh, no. No, no, no, no. I do not want this. I put the book down, had to like, go walk away for an hour, do something else. I was like, okay, it's not a bully romance. I think I'm gonna, I'm gonna keep going. We'll see. And Jude won me over with her gumption, old fashioned word there.

Sage Moreaux:

A good one though.

Zinzi Bree:

And by the end of the book I could see this is the perception Jude has of Cardin's behavior and what he's actually doing, ways to protect her. I could see that at the end of it. So I, I came around on the Cruel Prince and wanna continue the series, but

Sage Moreaux:

Okay.

Zinzi Bree:

for that little bit, ugh,

Sage Moreaux:

I,

Zinzi Bree:

morally great characters.

Sage Moreaux:

so I haven't read the Zodiac Academy, but I loved that scene because at the time, I recognized they tricked her, if I'm thinking of the right scene, they tricked her into being like dispelled by their magic. And Cardin was kind of part of it. And I saw very much that he was kind of like swayed by like the popular kids and he was like trying to be part of the, I mean he was the prince, so like poor him. But

Zinzi Bree:

He is the popular

Sage Moreaux:

yeah, he is the popular kid, but like kind, I kind of saw that he was like falling along with the meanness of everybody else, which is not at all something to do. You should stand up to bullies even when they're your friends, et cetera. But I gave him a little bit of a pass on that and then when he had her suck her finger because blood is salty and that broke the spell, I saw that right there and I was like, oh, I see where this is going. I'm not gonna talk too much about it because you haven't read the whole, the whole trilogy.

Zinzi Bree:

Yep.

Katherine Suzette:

Okay. I

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

I did DNF The Cruel Prince at the same point. Because of that. However, I read the Zodiac Academy and I was so upset. I'm still upset. I just finished book three. I was listening to it on audio because I'm in a book club group where there's a little bit more interest in some of the darker fantasies, or romantics in general. And yeah,

Zinzi Bree:

that case,

Katherine Suzette:

does lean that

Zinzi Bree:

I don't see that there's a way to make a bully romance that is not dark in my opinion.

Katherine Suzette:

I think in retrospect, I was really hoping that they would recover from that more quickly in the Zodiac Academy because it bothers the ever living daylights out of me. But they are slowly exposing all of the reasons behind it. And I don't think that excuses any behaviors, they're also bringing in the fact that they're all Fae and it's basically all a little morally gray and it's totally expected in the culture. And that feels kinda like the author just reasoning out ways to go ahead and have a bully romance, so I'm very on the fence about this. I probably will finish it to say I did, I hate DNFing when I've got so far, but I did DNF the Cruel Prince for like two years. I finally came back and I finished book two. Probably just right before we met. But

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

like, almost a year ago now that said. still haven't picked up the next book because I never got to the point where I was like super committed to the characters and don't hate me, I DNF'd Outlander of this scene in which Jamie, punishes Claire, for doing something that was culturally inappropriate at the time for women. I could not get over Claire not making a big deal of it. See, in the Zodiac Academy, at least the girls are like, oh, let's get our revenge. And then it's this whole revenge fantasy for the two girls for a little while. Like, okay, I can get behind a revenge fantasy. But in Outlander they just decide oh, I'll never touch you like that again. And that's what happens. He doesn't, that's it. But as you can see, I have the whole series for Outlander back here, and I still haven't finished them. I think at some point I might, but I'll just skip over book one. The DNFing Bullies is always on par with my moral code.

Sage Moreaux:

I did read at the first Outlander book and that scene was super hard for me. Also, I did keep re, I'm. Very rarely DNF. And usually it's when it's not something that I think is well written. One of the things I loved about Cruel Prince is I love Holly Black's writing style. She does write books that are basically girls who fall in love with monsters, and that's a little bit disturbing and general, but kind of like pretty much all of her books. The male character, the love interest is if not an actual vampire, fairly monstrous, in behavior. And the girls aren't like angels themselves, so there's that. But all of her characters are pretty morally gray or dark. But with Outlander, when that punishment happened, I just never liked him again. Some people really love like the super old fashioned macho male lead, and that's just not me. What is he spanked her a bunch. Um,

Katherine Suzette:

whipped her with

Sage Moreaux:

oh, he whipped her.

Katherine Suzette:

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

Right. See, I blocked it out and I agree with you. How could she not, how could she accept that and just be like, oh, well,'cause he's so hot.

Katherine Suzette:

made

Sage Moreaux:

The sexist,

Katherine Suzette:

less

Sage Moreaux:

you know.

Katherine Suzette:

couldn't stand by her for the rest of that book, although the TV series did recover a lot of that, to be fair.

Zinzi Bree:

Back to, now that we've just totally got off into romance land. Well, historical fantasy romance, for Outlander,

Sage Moreaux:

can we talk a little bit about defining what makes it a dark fantasy versus horror fantasy?

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

Is there a difference with that or grim dark, if we're talking that morally gray is characters, there is still I think a spectrum of dark.

Zinzi Bree:

what I was seeing when I looked it up for dark fantasy, it was usually that. Both the main characters and the setting is, ambiguous. There's not a clear moral code necessary there isn't clear, this is good, this is bad, in the world. And, there were some sub genres like grim dark and gothic fantasy, which

Sage Moreaux:

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree:

Out of those, a gothic fantasy is most likely what I would read over. Dark fantasy that's more brutal in having violence and war and murder and rape. Dark magic. So here's an example. And maybe you ladies will have a book that has this, that is dark fantasy where there's blood rituals and blood sacrifices. There's blood mages, okay. I'm currently reading and very much enjoying Villains and Virtues series by A. K. Caggiano I think it's Caggiano I'm probably mispronouncing her name, but main character in that he's a blood mage and he's considered evil. There's some very clear, these are supposed to be the good gods and these are the bad gods and these are demons and there's. very clear lines about what is and is not considered as far as morality goes. And there's a lot of humor and there's a lot of fun and lightness in the series. Another similar one is like Assistant to the Villain, where you've got a bad guy who is either by good as bad, or is bad, but not in a, because I can fix him way, but just because heroine is goodness and kindness incarnate, makes the lead character want to earn her and deserve her. And then shifts his behavior throughout the story, like those are, but him being a blood mage, like how it's used, Feels very different in that where it's, a lighter fantasy, or even more gothic versus like in blood rituals where there's no remorse, there's no thinking about it, there's just death and I get the power. But I haven't, I have not read those other dark books where that has the heavier version, of Blood Mage or Blood Magic.

Katherine Suzette:

Okay, so one of my recommendations at the end of the show is going to be Hell Bent and there is some darkness like that they, but the characters do struggle with the decisions, but they end up making them, for the better good, so to speak. then I also am thinking of Anne Rice's series, especially when it comes

Zinzi Bree:

Interview with a Vampire.

Katherine Suzette:

With a vampire. Yes. I also love

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm

Katherine Suzette:

her wolf books probably a lot more honestly, but in Interview with a Vampire, there are very morally gray, if not truly dark characters all over that don't necessarily have a ton of redeeming qualities that, yet they still end up living pretty decent lives and whatnot. There's definitely dark blood rituals. There's massacres that the vampires

Zinzi Bree:

mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

twice about, so maybe that qualifies as one of the more horrific branches of dark fantasy.

Sage Moreaux:

Yeah, I was thinking about it because like I just read Assistant to the Villain and that has some. Torture referenced. But to me it's really, it's humorous and it's pretty lighthearted, and the violence is toned down, right? It's not described in detail. It's almost like it happens. But the most, in that one, the most resonant violence was the, almost sexual assault against the main character that had happened in her past. That's what resonated with me the most was that and the, betrayal at the end that happens to the main character.

Zinzi Bree:

Spoilers.

Sage Moreaux:

that bothered me more than severed heads hanging from the walls. That's kind of like flippantly talked about, so I wouldn't consider that to be

Zinzi Bree:

Squishing eyeballs beneath her boot.

Sage Moreaux:

Exactly. I've read lots of various fantasy, I mean, vampire supernatural fantasy where some of it is same thing. It's just kind of vampires over there and they're sucking the blood outta people. And it's not super, that's dark, but it's not written super dark. It's written more morally gray almost. Or it's a mid, it's a gray book versus a light book or a dark book. And then there's some where it is like extremely gruesome. And I would say the Anne Rice stuff is a little more on the dark side than maybe more like ya vampire stuff I'm thinking Vampire Diaries for example, were yes, the characters are vampires, but they're also hot and you can kind of find redeeming qualities about them. Is that then supernatural versus being dark fantasy? And then is there a line between, having this violence versus it being really dark because the characters don't have remorse around that, the violence that is being created or there's no hope in the world? I feel like a lot of really dark stuff. It's you just know it's not gonna turn out well for anybody. Um,

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

what I'm hearing is that we need like a gray scale to place

Zinzi Bree:

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette:

on this line. Like just how dark it, just how light and yeah, maybe we should

Sage Moreaux:

I.

Katherine Suzette:

gray and dark fantasy. And then the morally gray can just apply to characters in general. So that's more of a characterization. but we

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

and dark fantasy. And that said the gray scale, maybe that's relevant at some point. Like just how light, just how dark.'cause The Spellshop, The little spell shop. That is definitely light for me. Like I never questioned if the characters

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

I never questioned whether or not any heavy or dark topics would come in. And it was sweet and, you know, it lived up to its

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

yes, it was an amazing book and it was light for sure. I feel no question on that one.

Zinzi Bree:

I am so excited for the Enchanted Greenhouse to come out. It's so soon. Which is same world, same author, and one of the characters that was mentioned in The Spellshop. So The Spellshop is a great example of, of what light fantasy is. It's cozy fantasy. I actually, I just saw, when I was looking it up, on the interwebs, it called Cozy or Light Fantasy Noble Bright.'Cause when I think of the characters that I would consider Cozy fantasy characters in particular, like Evie in Assistant to the Villain, she's all things, she's bright, she's good hearted, she's noble intentions, bright both in that she's intelligent, but also that she's a very upbeat character. Possibly obnoxiously up upright, um, for some people. Yes. The idea of it being noble bright, that to me felt like a good lens for kind of defining, the characters in Cozy Fantasy. I just recently read, Dreadful by. Nope, I'm not gonna be able to pronounce the last name. It'll show up on, screen, on YouTube, and it'll be in the description. Which was recommended to me from one of, the people in my writing group. and it is gothic cozy fantasy

Sage Moreaux:

Ooh.

Zinzi Bree:

is a dark Lord had something backfire on him to where he lost his memories of how he became the dark Lord.

Sage Moreaux:

Oh, I've heard of this one.

Zinzi Bree:

he's spending the book, trying to figure out who he was, if he wants to be that person, if he wants to be who he is now, and. Trying to figure out the, things that are the plot that he's gotten himself into with fellow dark wizards. Does he want to help them? Does he want to foil them? What does he do with the princess that he's keeping in the dungeon? It had lots of gothic elements. There's, a character that gets to death, not by the main characters, does not burned somebody to death on the page. But he had previously done that in his dark wizard past, is dealing with a lot of these things but the tone of it was still so humorous. It didn't have a moralistic like, this is good, so you should be good. It was a very natural, well-written way of bringing this character who had. a past life been, one version of himself, and then now choosing. I didn't like that version of myself. I would like to go in a different direction. Whether that's good or whether it's just different, remains to be seen.'cause I'm, I'm hoping there'll be a sequel.

Sage Moreaux:

Did you finish the book?

Zinzi Bree:

Yes,

Sage Moreaux:

I haven't read it. Was there much about, whatever it was that happened in his past that made him into that dark person? Because I would imagine, if you had this, a lot of characters have a wound or a ghost in their past that they need to overcome or drags them down. And if you lost your memory of that, maybe you wouldn't be affected and all of a sudden you might. And not having this dark thing that has happened to you, I could see that turning you into a very different person if you don't remember it. that's one of my favorite things when talking about,'cause I don't read a ton of light fantasy. The things I love is when there's like a really evil villain and you find out why they're so evil and you start to have a little empathy for them, even though you don't necessarily, still agree with their choices or want them to be redeemed or anything like that. That kind of lends itself with the morally great characters. Because then your characters are, giving these reasons for why they're making these choices and it makes you think more deeply about what would you do in that situation, right? Is it's real easy. From your chair that you're reading in to be those choices are so poor and I'm so altruistic. But in that position, you might make very similar choices. It's an interesting kind of personal reflection, and that's one of the things I love most about morally gray characters.

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

thinking back to trying to define dark fantasy. I wonder what you guys think about this. So we've discussed a little bit about the horror elements in fantasy and whether or not that classifies it as like a horror fantasy or a fantasy horror as opposed to just dark. And I'm not sure there's a great answer to that, but what do you guys think of the ones that I think of as spiritually, morally gray at best, if not spiritually dark? Bringing up some pretty deep questions there. one that comes to mind right now is called Slewfoot. It's a woman who is accused of being a witch, at a time when witches were burned. So

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

she goes and makes a pact with what we think for most of the book is a demon, but which we learn is more of a nature spirit who was out for revenge. So. It does change her. And in a way it becomes almost her own villain arc because she goes on a rampage, but by the time we get there, we are all in full support of her absolutely destroying this village in the most bloody way possible. And then we're like, hell yeah. Go live your, your best nature loving self with the nature spirits that take revenge on humans who disrespect the nature. So it's really spiritually dark because you, I really thought for most of the book it was almost demon. I almost, I put it down several times. I was like, this is, I'm not sure I can get behind this decision. But by the end, it totally recovered it for me. And then I just found it to be a really interesting journey for me thinking about why I. Let myself be led on the journey I did by the author. So I guess

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

to my point, how do we feel about more spiritually dark being classified in the dark fantasy realm?

Sage Moreaux:

Was there a lot of the bloody Retribution. Was that shown on the page? Like was it

Katherine Suzette:

it wasn't

Sage Moreaux:

described?

Katherine Suzette:

but it was definitely there. It was, it was talked about not necessarily experienced in a really deep way.

Sage Moreaux:

I'm trying to think if I've read any books where it is more like spiritually dark.

Katherine Suzette:

I mean, I have read some from particulars perspectives, like a Christian perspective, thinking of something like Piercing the Darkness. That was one that I read way, way back when.

Zinzi Bree:

Peretti.

Katherine Suzette:

I felt at the time when I read that, it was so dark, but it was, it was all a Christian perspective. It was all about spiritual warfare and all that kind of thing. I felt so complicated about it. So I would classify that one as dark. It's not, it's not fantasy. So it might not belong in the podcast, I think that's that deep level of like, like a book that can push you to be introspective about your own spiritual perspectives and reactions and the spiritual plane and all of that. Does that still qualify as fantasy or does that like push it out of that realm and is it just dark or is it just weirdly thought provoking and generally strange? I don't know. I just, I don't have an answer for myself.

Zinzi Bree:

when it comes to, This Present Darkness, Frank Peretti's, that's actually one of my favorite depictions of both angels and demons, that I've read. that I've read a lot of that, but to me whether you consider it spiritual or not, comes from are you a spiritual person? What is your faith like as someone who's a Christian, I can look at that book both from the lens of this is fantasy because it's still, you know, the Chronicles of Narnia is still fantasy. It's allegory, it's still in authors interpretation of what that could be. So I would still call it fantasy. It makes my brain bounce over to one of my other favorite depictions of demons is C.S. Lewis is The Screwtape Letters.

Katherine Suzette:

Hmm.

Zinzi Bree:

it's not cozy fantasy, but the tone is so humorous, but manipulative these two demons that are, writing to each other about how to manipulate, this chosen human, towards sin and going to hell or whatever. And it's fascinating. And it also short, so now I'm like, I'm just, I'm gonna reread that'cause it's a little bit fun. There's some, and I don't get the attraction for the, oh, here's the morally gray hero who's hot. get the mor the, the attraction to like, is fun, like evil. That's fun, evil, that's funny. Evil that is delighting in. Ability to manipulate, like that is what is attractive to me. If I'm gonna read something that has darkness and evil deeds. Loki would be like,

Katherine Suzette:

one.

Zinzi Bree:

gonna read about Loki. That's, beautifully played by Tom Hiddleston. And even early on in his journey, like he's bad at being evil and he's ineffectual sometimes, in the, Marvel cinematic universe. Sorry, not books. I'll it back. Although comics, if that wanted to count,

Katherine Suzette:

Yeah.

Zinzi Bree:

I need some books that have, maybe we'll add that in our book club.'cause we're trying to do stuff that's mythologically inspired. Somebody in the comments, give me your Loki books. Where are the, Loki as the love interest, Norse mythology. Books.

Katherine Suzette:

there's a

Zinzi Bree:

Send, send it to me.

Sage Moreaux:

There is actually, I haven't read it, but, there is a Loki book, I believe it is a Disney produced

Katherine Suzette:

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

novel. It's a marvel, Disney approved. But it is written by, I can't remember her name. She wrote The Gentleman's Guide to Vice and Virtue. I'm pretty sure it's that author.

Zinzi Bree:

That's on my TBR.

Sage Moreaux:

she was brought on to write this book about Loki and I think it's just called Loki. And I started it and it was super funny. I had just read like the first page'cause it's just sitting on my shelf, so once I read that, then I will add a comment, whether it's a recommendation or not. So back to light, dark and morally gray. I was thinking about it as we were getting ready for this podcast., Had I really read anything super light and had I ever read anything super dark?'cause I feel like I am first and foremost a fan of epic fantasy. I feel Epic fantasy often falls a little more in the middle where there is dark elements, but there's also like these amazing heroes that, you know, come out to save the day. So things generally end up pretty happy at the end. I did start realizing that I had read more Dark Fantasy. I don't know if either of you have read this, but Joe Abercrombie wrote The First Law trilogy and the first one's called The Blade Itself. And it's very like sword fighting there at the three main characters. There is a berserker called the Bloody nine. And then there's the Torturer who was my favorite character. And this is an example of like this, it's not blood ritual so much, but he is a torturer. He is literally cutting people up and it goes pretty graphic into it. And yet I loved him as a character and there was a little bit of humor. The third character was this wannabe noble prince who took on the role of the good guy, but was not a very nice person inside. And the way that the author like took these kind of tropes and flipped them was so beautifully done. It is gritty there's lots of blood and violence and stuff, and I would actually say if there was a morally gray genre, even though there's darkness in it, that would be like a morally gra race.'cause you really don't come out with feeling like anything in the world. Is anything but complex. Have either of you read that one?

Katherine Suzette:

No, I haven't, but you're making me think of the Game of Thrones right now, where all of the characters have their own morally gray journey, if not morally bad. And some of them become a little better, some of'em become worse. Some of'em just die because they live their little violent bit and that's all they were useful for. But it, I don't know the book that you're talking about, but I, it does make me think of, of the Game of Thrones and just gritty that one is.

Sage Moreaux:

yeah, it has a similar kind of dark vibe, but there's maybe a bit more humor. Not a lot of humor, but a little bit more humor than Game of Thrones.

Zinzi Bree:

Dungeon Crawler Carl, that is, It's Lit RPG, but that's one of the darkest fantasies that I have read.

Sage Moreaux:

I've heard of that one.

Zinzi Bree:

I was listening to that. I got through first couple of books and then had to stop because one, I had binged them, but two, just like being immersed in the grittiness and the death and The humor's fantastic, but it didn't balance out the darkness for me where, and this happened to my husband too, where we both were like, we have to take a break from this. And I haven't gone back to that series yet. Because it got too dark. So there's a question we can talk about is, how dark is too dark? I would assume as I don't read very much dark fantasy, that dark humor would also be, you're chopping up body parts and then thinking about, that you're gonna make soup later and, oh, this man's arm is kind of like a chicken leg where you just rip it off and it's the same thing. And then,

Sage Moreaux:

Are you sure you don't read a lot of dark fantasy?

Katherine Suzette:

Yeah. The insider's

Sage Moreaux:

you should write it.

Zinzi Bree:

Well that's, I, might just be thinking more Dungeon Crawler Carl, where at some point you're strong enough, you could just rip somebody's arm off and then beat them with it. but that's probably also because some of, movies like, Deadpool he could rip his own arm off and then beat somebody with it and a new arm would grow back in. At first it would be the really awkward, little baby hand arm and then grow the rest of the way

Sage Moreaux:

Right, like the dark humor changes it from being super dark.

Zinzi Bree:

okay. So as, a reader, I read lights and cozy and, if they're dark or morally gray, it's because they're funny. That's what gets me to read those books. Versus Sage, sounds like much more, you read darker, complex, epic, high fantasy, hopefully with humor, but not necessarily, and you're saying for you lighter books what about them? Doesn't attract you to them.

Sage Moreaux:

Oh, that's a good question. Well, I really love the morally gray complexity of characters first of all, like you nailed it. I like complex plots and I like, characters having to make decisions that are complicated and are not. Who is always doing the right thing. They're more maybe selfish. They have something in them driving them to make decisions that are not always the most altruistic decision. So I like the idea that story is a way for us to learn how we would make choices. Obviously I don't live in a swords and sorcery type world and I'm not making those kinds of choices, but it, when the characters have a morally gray perspective, it gives a little more insight as to why people make the kinds of choices that they do.

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

And as to why I don't really go for light, I think I just like drama. That's what it comes down to. I'm not a very dramatic person. My life is pretty steadfast. I am conflict avoidant, and so I get my drama from my books

Katherine Suzette:

I love

Zinzi Bree:

Fair.

Katherine Suzette:

of close the cover on it, put it on a shelf and come back when you're ready for more too.

Sage Moreaux:

Yeah,

Katherine Suzette:

life drama you can't.

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

a hundred percent.

Katherine Suzette:

Cool. I guess I'll answer for dark then, read across the board. I love light. Gray and dark fantasy, but when it comes to dark, what attracts me to it when I'm in the mood for something darker is usually because I like the introspection of it and I like a little bit of the reality of it in a sense too. And I actually kind of like how some of it avoids drama. It kind of skips over some of that because that's never what's most important in the plot. And that makes me think of, Leigh Bardugo's recent. I mentioned it earlier, guys.

Zinzi Bree:

Hell bent

Katherine Suzette:

no, I mean, I love Hell Bent. Highly recommend that one, but this recent one that she wrote It's gotta be something else. What the familiar, The Familiar that is what it's

Sage Moreaux:

Oh, yes.

Katherine Suzette:

called the Familiar, and it definitely makes one thinks about their moral, leanings, I guess. who do I agree with in this situation? And in the end, I fully support again, the main character Leigh Bardugo really walks that line really well of building characters that you might eventually come to dislike, but that you never do, you can still fully get behind their ultimate decisions. So there I am with Dark Fantasy. I like ones that are kind of deep more provoking.

Sage Moreaux:

Can I ask a quick question about the idea of like horror fantasy, is that dark fantasy, or do we think that that's something. Even more like dark fantasy, but with like lots of gore.

Zinzi Bree:

so I think this has to do with tone because I recently read, How to Get a Girlfriend(When You're a Terrifying Monster), where one of the main characters, is a part of a cthulhu life devouring, life ending monster. But the tone of it was just fun. there was existential crisis for that character being like, do I'm not human. I'm this terrible void monster. What do I do with that? How do I exist in the not void realm as this thing? so I, very much think it has to do with treatment of tone, treatment, of setting, and I love that the book world is doing this more where they're going, what is this thing? can I take a cthulhu character and make it lovable, make it, want a girlfriend? set it in, a scientific, location. I feel like now we're seeing a lot more play with those kinds of things across genre tones, whether it is dark, whether it is cozy and light, than even a decade ago.

Katherine Suzette:

when it comes to deciding if a book is more of a fantasy horror, or a dark fantasy, I'm like, what is the most prevalent part of the story? What's the driving part? Is it the fantasy that we are so concerned with? Is it that we are trying to represent this graphic horror? Okay, great. If those are the two things, then it's a fantasy horror. But if it just so happens to be like a fantasy with romance and a super strong evil versus good arc that horror happens to play into, I would probably just lump that into a dark fantasy. So. Maybe it just comes down to what's the purpose of the novel?

Sage Moreaux:

So less about amount of blood and gore on the page and more about the purpose behind it, behind showing that.

Katherine Suzette:

or the plot arcs themselves, like is the relevance of that element, that horror element to the plot.

Sage Moreaux:

Nice, because I steer away from, horror based stuff generally, but there has been some like body horror that I've, read that I. Love, even though I'm surprised that I love it. I just read, They Bloom at Night, it's not exactly a fantasy, it's probably more, what's the word? Like dystopian.'cause it's like a near future calamity where, an environmental disaster starts creating these monstrous creatures and the teenage main character gets involved in the situation. And it's a lot about who you are as a person. There's some gender stuff in there, and then it's also, it's excellent. I think I cried at the end. It's pretty intense. Hard to read. But there was enough monstery stuff in there that it's well, is this horror? Is it. I guess it's dark, like dark dystopia. I mean, dystopian always dark, but it didn't exactly have fantasy'cause there wasn't magic in there. But there is, it's kinda like what we were talking about, how the, the genres are starting to blur or are harder to define as people experiment with different things.

Zinzi Bree:

All right. Who's your favorite morally gray character that you've read?

Sage Moreaux:

Okay, I am gonna just say, Manon in Blackbeak is my favorite morally gray character from, a Throne of Glass series. She comes out later in the series and she's this witch who, has a great, I just love her character arc, how she bonds with her, her w Mount that she takes on. She's meant to be the heir of her clan of witches, and she is supposed to be this badass and have no, emotion or, goodness within her and her grandma, who's the one who raised her basically is super hard on her and expects her to be so tough. And then this very compassionate side starts to bloom between her, relationship with her and her w who is, she chose like the runt of the litter when and bonded with him and when they, Abraxos and then that the relationship between the two of them is like, what makes her so amazing to me. I love, I love that. And just seeing her kind of come through the expectation of her upbringing and finding her true self and what she actually believes in. And she doesn't inherently become a good person by the end of it, but she becomes a much more, likable. I liked her all along, even when she was killing humans. And talking about eating them and stuff. So I just like loved her from the start. But then seeing her character arc, I really enjoyed that quite a lot, and that's why she's my favorite.

Zinzi Bree:

What about you, Katherine?

Katherine Suzette:

I cannot come up with like just one. I, I love so many and honestly I am probably not even thinking of whomever would be my favorite. What I did is I looked at the shelf behind me real quick and I pulled out a couple. So I kind of do think of the MCs in The Night Circus as morally grey. The plot is, more about winning the game that they are all involved in opposed to. Making the right decisions for the human being behind the decision. So I definitely think there's some moral grayness in there. And also the tone is just amazing.

Sage Moreaux:

I think because we've decided that, morally gray is not a genre and you can find morally gray characters in the whole spectrum of.

Zinzi Bree:

Yes.

Sage Moreaux:

right from the very most light, you might still have a slightly morally gray like villain perhaps, or side character all the way to super dark.

Zinzi Bree:

Mm-hmm.

Katherine Suzette:

And moreover, it's, it's an industry-wide preference these days to have

Zinzi Bree:

Yeah.

Katherine Suzette:

with complicated interiority. That tends to push them into the morally gray area opposed to say 50 or a hundred years ago when characters were a lot more cookie cutter because that's the way culture preferred it at the time. They really liked

Zinzi Bree:

Yep.

Katherine Suzette:

closer to black and white as much as possible be super culturally acceptable. And now we don't, we almost rebel against that now as a culture.

Zinzi Bree:

to me it feels much easier to pick out because when it comes to a morally gray character, there is so much thought into would I make the same decisions? Do they grow? Those sorts of things. Like if you have a character that is. Just good or even a character that's bad. They're not equally as memorable, are they? Like, do you have, do you have a character that you can think of that like, this is a wholly good character that I love and wanna talk about?

Sage Moreaux:

Ooh, that's an excellent question. This is comic books not the movies, but Batman versus Superman. Superman. I think maybe in later comics he got some like moral complexity. But he was just good. He did what was right. He was always so good. And Batman was so dark and conflicted, and I loved Batman so much. My brother had all these comics and I would read all of them. And, I loved Batman because he was complicated and, to me Superman was super boring.

Katherine Suzette:

Yes.

Sage Moreaux:

And, you know, there was some things about him that I liked, but in general he was just kind of dull. So I, can keep thinking, but that's my initial response is the like bright hero is a little bit boring.

Zinzi Bree:

So, I grew up with watching Smallville, and so Superman's my guy, and Captain America. I like the guys that make the moral choices and, you know, are always gonna, they're gonna do Captain America's case, they're gonna do the stupid thing because it's right. And,

Sage Moreaux:

I, whereas I just love Tony Stark. He is like a hundred percent Tony Stark.

Zinzi Bree:

Anyway. I like their coming of age stories where they're, you know, developing into that good person who's going to make moral choice, in spite of the sacrifices that they'll have to make to make the good choice.

Katherine Suzette:

Interesting. Even just talking about this, I wanna go back and add a character to my favorite morally grey's list and add the Witcher to

Zinzi Bree:

Please do.

Sage Moreaux:

Oh,

Zinzi Bree:

Oh,

Katherine Suzette:

He's a really good, complex, morally gray character who we all. Love to love and feel complicated about at other times, especially some of the other characters in the book. Like, his romantic interest, purple Eyes, whatever her name is.

Zinzi Bree:

Purple eyes.

Sage Moreaux:

I don't remember her name, but she it, she had a weird, yeah,

Zinzi Bree:

Yennefer. It's Yennefer

Sage Moreaux:

that's it.

Katherine Suzette:

And she's definitely morally gray and we all love her and we all hate her. And I think that she's a well built character, at least from what I've read. I haven't finished the whole series, I also wanna go back and amend my previous statement about, our culture is rebelling against morally predictable, good and bad characters. In the sense that I think a hundred years ago, our world was in such a place with all the wars and everything, or our nation was that that was the rebellion against the darkness that they saw in the real world.

Zinzi Bree:

Hmm.

Sage Moreaux:

It does feel like right now there's a big trend towards cozy, in recent years, possibly stemming from. Upheavals in

Katherine Suzette:

Life

Sage Moreaux:

world over the last number of years. Cozy has always existed, and I don't know if it's just that there's more being published in like the fantasy genre, for example. But I remember reading Cozy Mystery as a kid, and that's definitely existed, right? But it does feel like there's a trend towards people wanting something comforting, but then I also think there is a trend towards people wanting real, we wanna see our heroes be like real people who are struggling and it's not easy for them, and they still do what's right. Because I think that that's how we as humans. Who are struggling, we wanna see that you can still do what's right through the struggle. And that now makes for a really good hero. And so I think that lends people into loving the morally gray complex characters a little bit more, especially when they come out doing the right thing or the best thing that they can do in the situation.

Katherine Suzette:

Or if they make the wrong decisions and then have to figure their way out of whatever hole they've dug for themselves because of that decision, that's also very relatable humanity. I mean, how many times have we stuck our foot in our mouths at a very important moment? And our characters do that, and we're like, why did you do that? It was a simple decision to keep your mouth shut and, and yet the characters go and do it. And we are embarrassed for them, and we hate them for it. And they didn't make the right decision clearly, but. Then they figure their way out of the whole and they rebuild our trust with them as characters. And eventually their growth arc us love them even more than wherever we started with them.

Sage Moreaux:

When you said about put the characters that put their foot in their mouth, I was like, oh, that's like me, this whole podcast. As I interrupt people and start talking about comic books.

Katherine Suzette:

We don't

Zinzi Bree:

said.

Katherine Suzette:

of sticking to point still.

Zinzi Bree:

That's assuming we had points to begin with. It's guidelines. They aren't hard rules Pirates of the Caribbean here. It's guidelines.

Katherine Suzette:

of my favorite movies of all time.

Zinzi Bree:

what is your book recommendation for light, dark and morally gray? I am gonna do mine real quick here so my recommended read is Thrown in the Dark by A. K. Caggiano ca ca cagiano

Katherine Suzette:

cagiano.

Zinzi Bree:

C-A-G-G-I-A-N-O. I feel so bad that I'm screwing up your last name, but your books are delightful. And I highly recommend, if you liked Assistant to the Villain. It is very much in that vein, although I'm pretty sure it was written first, where you've got, grumpy Sunshine, magic Blood mages It's loads of fun. There's a, imp sidekick with a lot of attitude.

Katherine Suzette:

love.

Zinzi Bree:

I highly recommend the audio book. There's two narrators, who do a really good job, in my opinion, of bringing the characters to life so thrown in the dark, the Villain and Virtues series by A. K. Caggiano.

Sage Moreaux:

Added to my to be red. I am going to recommend, a gray fantasy. It's the Gilded Wolves by Roshani Chokshi, I believe is how you pronounce her last name. And it is a heist fantasy that takes place in an alternate, earth. It's kind of like a historical fantasy, with a heist element. And I love heist stories in general. And, it lends itself to a lot of morally great characters. I believe that there are five point of view characters in this book. There's a couple romance subplots. It's the first of a trilogy, so be prepared for that. It's a lot of fun.

Katherine Suzette:

I will go ahead and recommend Hell Bent by Leigh Bardugo. I think that is an excellent book. It leans to the dark. I wouldn't say that it's outrageously dark.

Zinzi Bree:

thank you so much for listening. This has been Book Dragon Banter. We are a baby podcast, so please, please, please, please, subscribe rate and review and all the things that you feel inspired to do. our book club, read. Episode is the Last Dragon of the East by Katrina Kwan. So if you wanna pick that up and read it before we cover it, You can find us on social media, And outside of the podcast, you can't really find me Zinzi Bree on the internet'cause I don't really go to other places. But I do run a cozy little corner of, zoom writing in person meetups several times a week. If you're interested in that, send us an email.

Sage Moreaux:

So you can find me@sagemoreaux.com. It's Moreaux with an X, I'm also on Instagram and Substack, which is where I'd really love you to follow me. So go ahead and check that out.

Katherine Suzette:

And I am Katherine Suzette. You can type in Katherine suzette.com or you can hit me up@bookdragoneditorial.com. They will both take you to the same site, I can be found on social media as Katherine Suzette book editor. So go find me and feel free to send me a dm.

Zinzi Bree:

You can get your book Dragon Banter Fix every other week on Tuesday, Thank you so much for tuning in.​the bloopers.

Sage Moreaux:

We didn't do our, um, fun facts. Katherine and I didn't do fun facts, I'm Sage Moreaux and a fun fact about me is that I regularly debate in my mind whether I am lawful good or neutral. Good. I think I'm lawful good like 98% of the time, so I don't know. Does that make me neutral? Good.

Katherine Suzette:

I don't know. Zinzi said earlier something about the, the villains that she likes and everything. Maybe she's chaotic. Good. What do you think Zinzi if Sage is Neutral

Sage Moreaux:

Ooh,

Katherine Suzette:

good. Are you chaotic? Good.

Zinzi Bree:

Oh, absolutely. Chaotic. Good.

Katherine Suzette:

I might be chaotic. Morally gray. I don't know.

Sage Moreaux:

chaotic, neutral. That's like

Zinzi Bree:

That's, that's

Sage Moreaux:

a big challenge.

Katherine Suzette:

neutral.

Sage Moreaux:

I I'm such a huge rule follower that people that play board games with me know that we have to like take multiple breaks to check the rule manual to make sure that we're playing the game correctly.

Katherine Suzette:

Okay. Well then maybe we figured

Zinzi Bree:

I was.

Katherine Suzette:

fun fact is that, if there's a way to cheat at a game and I can figure it out, I probably will.

Zinzi Bree:

Oh, that's great. I have an entire wall full of board games in my house and like a very fancy, expensive table, expensive piece of furniture that we own that is a board gaming table. And I'm the person that reads the rules, but I'm also the first person to go, this rule sucks. Let's make a house rule. That makes it more fun.

Sage Moreaux:

it'll be interesting when the three of us get together and play some board games.

Zinzi Bree:

We'll, we'll be eagerly eye staring at Katherine to being like, how is she cheating?

Sage Moreaux:

it actually might be a terrible idea'cause that might be the end of the podcast.

Katherine Suzette:

Oh, no. I not.

Zinzi Bree:

I'm gonna bring my deck of ACH and we're gonna play ACH because that's, that's Star Wars Poker.

Sage Moreaux:

Ooh.

Zinzi Bree:

Poker, well, star Wars blackjack actually. Um, and we are gonna play it for like Starburst or M&M's. Or Popcorn,

Sage Moreaux:

That's fair.

Zinzi Bree:

that's the only way I will play with you. if I know one of you is absolutely gonna cheat and the other one is gonna start throwing stuff, if we don't follow the rules,

Sage Moreaux:

Yeah. M&m's right at your forehead

Katherine Suzette:

Okay. When we finally get to go on our own personal retreat where we get to meet each other and do all of our photos and everything, we'll do a game sesh and we'll all have our little mics and we'll just like record and do like a little highlights what it's like.

Zinzi Bree:

Yes. Yeah.

Sage Moreaux:

all of the M&M's bouncing off your forehead.

Zinzi Bree:

Well

Sage Moreaux:

No, I'm not. I'm conf.

Zinzi Bree:

Scenes of us trying to like, ah. It's catch in your mouth.

Sage Moreaux:

Oh yeah,

Zinzi Bree:

suck at that.

Sage Moreaux:

me too.

Zinzi Bree:

or, yep.

Katherine Suzette:

That's what cleavage is for. Please don't put that in.

Zinzi Bree:

Did

Katherine Suzette:

Okay. I quit. I'm fired from podcast.

Zinzi Bree:

Podcast. We're so unhinged by the end of this. It's amazing.

Katherine Suzette:

visible,

Head Shot

Katherine Suzette

Co-host
Head Shot

Sage Moreaux

Co-host
Head Shot

Zinzi Bree

Co-host

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